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ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

 
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 10:29 am
Here is an interesting piece that needs no further introduction.


Saturday 2 September 2006
Questioning the Hezbollah-Nazi axis
Louis Greenspan, professor emeritus of religious studies at McMaster University, wrote in the September 1, 2006 edition of the Globe and Mail:

(excerpt)

Hezbollah and other radical movements in the Islamic world have an eerie resemblance to the fascist parties of prewar Europe. On the other hand, I believe we should seek to place radical Islam in its Middle Eastern context where, I believe, we will find greater strengths and greater weaknesses than the paradigm of a war on fascism allows. We need to find an alternative to those on the left who are energized by the thought of a new great revolution and those on the right who have conjured up an ill-defined permanent crusade.

Islamic radicalism has produced a cornucopia of déjà vus. Many on today's left envision a repeat of history. In their writings, they have decoded radical Islamic thinkers as humanists and Western anti-imperialists. They have celebrated contemporary leaders as reincarnations of Che Guevara and even the Minutemen of the American Revolution. Yet, those secular leftists who embraced the Islamic revolution in its finest hour, the 1979 uprising of the Iranian masses against the Shah, have either been executed or thrown into exile.

The warnings of Mr. Bush, Mr. Rumsfeld and Mr. Kenney seem prescient by comparison. The literature and actions of Hezbollah recall fascist political outlooks so closely that one suspects the original fascist manifestos were models and inspiration. Hezbollah's call for the removal of Israel from the Middle East and its vigorous opposition to all negotiations to end the conflict is buttressed by ugly discourses on Judaism and the Jewish people and ratified by actions such as the destruction of the Jewish centre in Argentina in the early 1980s.

Hezbollah has played a villainous role in the Palestinian campaign of suicide bombings. Hezbollah itself used suicide bombings against Israeli military targets, but scholars believe it instructed others, primarily Hamas and Islamic Jihad (the latter, like Hezbollah, an Iranian protégé), in the innovation of suicide attacks against civilian targets. Moreover, its theologians and philosophers have provided the justification for such attacks, teaching that, since Israel's army consists of draftees, all Israeli civilians are eligible for destruction. This is Hezbollah's most memorable contribution to moral theology. Its leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, has declared that the ingathering of Jews in Israel will make it easier to destroy them.

Much of this gives credence to the imagery of a new "war on fascism," but, as this war has unfolded, we have blundered from one disaster to another, in Iraq, in Lebanon and elsewhere. I would argue that it arises from too singular a view of the struggle with fascism. War on fascism conjures up the image of total victories followed by military occupations by millions of soldiers to re-educate deluded masses.

Bleak as this picture seems, I don't want to support any view of this war that freezes the actors in situ. To call Hezbollah a Hitlerite phenomenon is to preclude its evolution into a political party devoted to its country. Its future in this respect is a crucial moment in the evolution of Islamic radicalism.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 11:07 am
xingu wrote:
The hypocrisy of those who support Israel.

Quote:
Criticize Israel? You're an Anti-Semite!

How can we have a real discussion about Mideast peace if speaking honestly about Israel is out of bounds?
...

How can we have a real discussion about Mideast peace if speaking honestly about the IT is out of bounds?

IT = Islamo Totalitarians (e.g., Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, Taliban, Baathists).

Those who kill non-combatants are combatants. Those who harbor killers of non-combatants are combatants who kill non-combatants. Those who kill killers of non-combatants are combatants who are defenders of non-combatants.

So why are Israelies called vicrtimizers when they react to their victimization by doing whatever they can to stop their victimization? How does that promote "a real discussion about Mideast peace".

It is hypocrisy to sympathize more with victimizers than with their victims; in particular, it is hypocrisy to sympathize with IT victimizers of the Israelies than to sympathize with Israelies victimized by IT.

Hypocrites demand Israelies display a mode of conduct that precludes their successful self-defense, while demanding little or nothing from the IT that will inhibit IT's successful extermination of the Israelies.

Want to achieve real "Mideast peace"? Discuss ways for Israel to stop neighbors of Israel from victimizing Israelies.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 11:12 am
Advocate wrote:
Here is an interesting piece that needs no further introduction.


Saturday 2 September 2006
Questioning the Hezbollah-Nazi axis
Louis Greenspan, professor emeritus of religious studies at McMaster University, wrote in the September 1, 2006 edition of the Globe and Mail:

(excerpt)

Hezbollah and other radical movements in the Islamic world have an eerie resemblance to the fascist parties of prewar Europe. On the other hand, I believe we should seek to place radical Islam in its Middle Eastern context where, I believe, we will find greater strengths and greater weaknesses than the paradigm of a war on fascism allows. We need to find an alternative to those on the left who are energized by the thought of a new great revolution and those on the right who have conjured up an ill-defined permanent crusade.

Islamic radicalism has produced a cornucopia of déjà vus. Many on today's left envision a repeat of history. In their writings, they have decoded radical Islamic thinkers as humanists and Western anti-imperialists. They have celebrated contemporary leaders as reincarnations of Che Guevara and even the Minutemen of the American Revolution. Yet, those secular leftists who embraced the Islamic revolution in its finest hour, the 1979 uprising of the Iranian masses against the Shah, have either been executed or thrown into exile.

The warnings of Mr. Bush, Mr. Rumsfeld and Mr. Kenney seem prescient by comparison. The literature and actions of Hezbollah recall fascist political outlooks so closely that one suspects the original fascist manifestos were models and inspiration. Hezbollah's call for the removal of Israel from the Middle East and its vigorous opposition to all negotiations to end the conflict is buttressed by ugly discourses on Judaism and the Jewish people and ratified by actions such as the destruction of the Jewish centre in Argentina in the early 1980s.

Hezbollah has played a villainous role in the Palestinian campaign of suicide bombings. Hezbollah itself used suicide bombings against Israeli military targets, but scholars believe it instructed others, primarily Hamas and Islamic Jihad (the latter, like Hezbollah, an Iranian protégé), in the innovation of suicide attacks against civilian targets. Moreover, its theologians and philosophers have provided the justification for such attacks, teaching that, since Israel's army consists of draftees, all Israeli civilians are eligible for destruction. This is Hezbollah's most memorable contribution to moral theology. Its leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, has declared that the ingathering of Jews in Israel will make it easier to destroy them.

Much of this gives credence to the imagery of a new "war on fascism," but, as this war has unfolded, we have blundered from one disaster to another, in Iraq, in Lebanon and elsewhere. I would argue that it arises from too singular a view of the struggle with fascism. War on fascism conjures up the image of total victories followed by military occupations by millions of soldiers to re-educate deluded masses.

Bleak as this picture seems, I don't want to support any view of this war that freezes the actors in situ. To call Hezbollah a Hitlerite phenomenon is to preclude its evolution into a political party devoted to its country. Its future in this respect is a crucial moment in the evolution of Islamic radicalism.


Godwin's Law
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 11:20 am
Advocate, the Lebanese resistence did not make a mockery out of the Geneva Convention. They didn't lie us into wa and Shock&Awe a nearly defenseless nation to kill a ruthless dictator they had installed, armed and funded. Sold WMD after he had used WMD and dug mass graves. Nasrqallah dont have torture prisons around the world. His great-grandfather and grandfather were not benefactors, business partners and funders of Hitler's rise to power. Bushie caint say that. Nasrallah did not arm or fund Saddam and bin Laden as Bushie's father did. http://www.membres.lycos.fr/alexthib/images/rumsfeldandsaddam.jpeg
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 11:24 am
Revel, that is too much of a flippant brushoff of an interesting discussion of the nature of organizations like Hezbollah. For instance, look at Hamas, which has grown to even take over the government in Palestine despite being a terrorist organization. That is certainly similar to Nazi's rise to power. Hez has similarly made inroads in the legitimate Lebanese government and society, despite being a VERY terroristic organization.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 12:24 pm
Blue, why are you linking Hezbollah to the Iraq matter? Are you saying that Hez is cool because it didn't act like the USA in invading Iraq?

I see you are using Hez propaganda terminology: "Lebanese resistance." I don't see much resistance in invading Israel, executing eight Israelis, and kidnapping two soldiers.

Israel was pushed out of Lebanon, and hoped this would satisfy its enemies in Lebanon. In appreciation, Hezbollah has continuously rocketed and otherwise attacked Israel.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 12:25 pm
revel wrote:

ican's emphasis
Quote:
Godwin's Law
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Listen to this article · (info)
This audio file was created from an article revision dated 2006-07-01, and does not reflect subsequent edits to the article. (Audio help)
More spoken articles Godwin's Law (also Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is a mainstay of Internet culture, an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. It is particularly concerned with logical fallacies such as reductio ad Hitlerum, wherein an idea is unduly dismissed or rejected on ground of it being associated with persons generally considered "evil".

The law states:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. [1]

Godwin's Law does not dispute whether, in a particular instance, a reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt. It is precisely because such a reference or comparison may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin argues in his book, Cyber Rights: Defending Free Speech in the Digital Age, that hyperbolic overuse of the Hitler/Nazi comparison should be avoided, as it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

Although in one of its early forms Godwin's Law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions[2], the law is now applied to any threaded online discussion: electronic mailing lists, message boards, chat rooms, and more recently blog comment threads and Wikipedia discussion pages.

Revel, next time maybe you should read the whole article.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 01:17 pm
Ican, I didn't make any comments or excerpt any part of the Wikipedia dictionary definition of Godwin Law; but left a link to the whole.

I agree with Godwin Law that because of overuse of "Hitler" (Nazi-WW2...) it is best to avoid using those terms in debates regardless of whether it is applicable or not.
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 02:39 pm
Revel, you are generally correct about not using Hitler terms. However, you have the truth that one who doesn't know history (Bush), is condemned to repeat it. In the instant matter, the terms may be useful in understanding the dangers of such organizations as Hez and Hamas.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 03:54 pm
Khatami: U.S. policies fuel terrorism


CHICAGO (AFP) - Former Iranian president Mohammad Khatami said late Saturday that U.S. foreign policy is fueling terrorism and warned a conference of Muslims in Chicago of the dangers of allowing "narrow minded viewpoints and practices" to dominate public policy and discourse.

Khatami is the most senior Iranian to visit the United States since Washington broke off diplomatic relations following the 1979 takeover of the U.S. embassy in Tehran.

He spoke of the need to promote dialogue and understanding in order to stem the current cycle of violence.

"As America claims to be fighting terrorism, it implements policies that cause the intensification of terrorism and institutionalized violence," Khatami said through an interpreter.

"The power of powers enjoys access to international instruments for securing their supremacy and strengthening their dominance, only seeking total subservience of others," he told the Islamic Society of North America's convention. He castigated the United States for finding it "more convenient" to deal with despots than democratic regimes that do not serve its interests and he denounced the current "war mongering against Islam and Islamophobia."

"The outcome of such behavior is the cyclical increase and buildup of hatred towards policies implemented by the United States throughout the world, and particularly in the Middle East," he added.

He urged American Muslims to challenge the misguided images of Islam portrayed by the media and politicians so that a more balanced foreign policy can be achieved.

"Public opinion can be rescued from the grips of ignorance and blunder and the domination of arrogant, warmongering and violence-triggering policies will end," said Khatami, a reformist who was president from 1997 to 2005.

Khatami heads the International Institute for Dialogue Among Civilizations and Cultures. He noted Saturday that he was quick to denounce the terrorist attacks of September 11 "since I knew this inferno would only intensify extremism and one-sidedness and would have no outcome except to retire justice and intellect and sacrifice righteousness and humanity." At an earlier speech Saturday, Khatami denounced terrorists and extremists who "exploit the name of religion" and said they are not people of "true faith."

Speaking to a group of Islamic community leaders at a suburban Chicago mosque, Khatami said a dialogue needs to be created between the secular and religious worlds.

"The people of true faith and the people who are truly concerned about humanity... These two communities can work together," Khatami said in his first public appearance in the United States. "They can communicate among one another for the betterment and better understanding of the cause of humanity," he said through an interpreter. "The dialogue can help to bring these two communities together."

Neither religions that preach a complete withdrawal from the material world nor the modern religion of science and materialism can eliminate insecurity, Khatami said. Only by finding a "third way" that addresses both the spiritual needs and the material needs can a "life of peace and satisfaction" be achieved, he said.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 07:57 pm
Quote:
War is not a solution for terrorism
Howard Zinn
September 2, 2006

THERE IS SOMETHING important to be learned from the recent experience of the United States and Israel in the Middle East: that massive military attacks, inevitably indiscriminate, are not only morally reprehensible, but useless in achieving the stated aims of those who carry them out.

The United States, in three years of war, which began with shock-and-awe bombardment and goes on with day-to-day violence and chaos, has been an utter failure in its claimed objective of bringing democracy and stability to Iraq. The Israeli invasion and bombing of Lebanon has not brought security to Israel; indeed it has increased the number of its enemies, whether in Hezbollah or Hamas or among Arabs who belong to neither of those groups.

I remember John Hersey's novel, ``The War Lover," in which a macho American pilot, who loves to drop bombs on people and also to boast about his sexual conquests, turns out to be impotent. President Bush, strutting in his flight jacket on an aircraft carrier and announcing victory in Iraq, has turned out to be much like the Hersey character, his words equally boastful, his military machine impotent.

The history of wars fought since the end of World War II reveals the futility of large-scale violence. The United States and the Soviet Union, despite their enormous firepower, were unable to defeat resistance movements in small, weak nations -- the United States in Vietnam, the Soviet Union in Afghanistan -- and were forced to withdraw.

Even the ``victories" of great military powers turn out to be elusive. Presumably, after attacking and invading Afghanistan, the president was able to declare that the Taliban were defeated. But more than four years later, Afghanistan is rife with violence, and the Taliban are active in much of the country.

The two most powerful nations after World War II, the United States and the Soviet Union, with all their military might, have not been able to control events in countries that they considered to be in their sphere of influence -- the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe and the United States in Latin America.

Beyond the futility of armed force, and ultimately more important, is the fact that war in our time inevitably results in the indiscriminate killing of large numbers of people. To put it more bluntly, war is terrorism. That is why a ``war on terrorism" is a contradiction in terms. Wars waged by nations, whether by the United States or Israel, are a hundred times more deadly for innocent people than the attacks by terrorists, vicious as they are.

The repeated excuse, given by both Pentagon spokespersons and Israeli officials, for dropping bombs where ordinary people live is that terrorists hide among civilians. Therefore the killing of innocent people (in Iraq, in Lebanon) is called accidental, whereas the deaths caused by terrorists (on 9/11, by Hezbollah rockets) are deliberate.

This is a false distinction, quickly refuted with a bit of thought. If a bomb is deliberately dropped on a house or a vehicle on the grounds that a ``suspected terrorist" is inside (note the frequent use of the word suspected as evidence of the uncertainty surrounding targets), the resulting deaths of women and children may not be intentional. But neither are they accidental. The proper description is ``inevitable."

So if an action will inevitably kill innocent people, it is as immoral as a deliberate attack on civilians. And when you consider that the number of innocent people dying inevitably in ``accidental" events has been far, far greater than all the deaths deliberately caused by terrorists, one must reject war as a solution for terrorism.

For instance, more than a million civilians in Vietnam were killed by US bombs, presumably by ``accident." Add up all the terrorist attacks throughout the world in the 20th century and they do not equal that awful toll.

If reacting to terrorist attacks by war is inevitably immoral, then we must look for ways other than war to end terrorism, including the terrorism of war. And if military retaliation for terrorism is not only immoral but futile, then political leaders, however cold-blooded their calculations, may have to reconsider their policies.

Howard Zinn is a professor emeritus at Boston University and the author of ``A People's History of the United States."
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 09:18 pm
Howard Zinn has next to zero credibility amongst serious historiians. He panders to a very select crowd.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 09:57 pm
Asherman wrote:
Howard Zinn has next to zero credibility amongst serious historiians. He panders to a very select crowd.


I don't know anything about Zinn but I know what he says makes a lot more sense than what we're doing in Iraq. It makes a lot more sense than attacking Iran.

The only thing Bush's policy has done is bring about a lot of death and instability, not to mention the creation of a lot more enemies for America. What we can look forward to in the future, under his policies, are more of the same. If the last few years is an indication of what the future holds then it will get a lot worse because nothing is getting better.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 11:04 pm
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 11:15 pm
Zinn is respected by some and disliked by others.

He's professor emeritus of Political Sciences and not of History, btw.


What I really like about him - and why he has been honoured - is that he was the first to have written a"A People's History ..." an idea, which was adopted by others and became successful in many countries.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 11:40 pm
Walter Hinteler- Would you like to react to the Historian? Zinn's quotation in the following paragraph? Please, no evasions--Comment on it directly!!

More recently, Zinn made clear that it is not just the idea of objectivity that he finds fault with, but facts themselves. In the current updated version of A People's History, the author declares: "there is no such thing as pure fact." Whether Zinn really believes this, or if it serves to rationalize intellectual dishonesty, one can only guess.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Sep, 2006 11:42 pm
Walter Hinteler- Would you like to comment on the following? Please respond directly to the comment.
quote
By now one might be thinking: On what evidence does Zinn base his varied proclamations? One can only guess. Despite its scholarly pretensions, the book contains not a single source citation. While a student in Professor Zinn's classes at Boston University or Spelman College might have received an "F" for turning in a paper without documentation, Zinn's footnote-free book is standard reading in scores of college courses across the country.
end of quote
NOT A SINGLE SOURCE CITATION??????????
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 12:30 am
No, I don't like to comment on previous responses.

Besides .... the book(s) are called A PEOPLE's History.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 01:09 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Hinteler- Would you like to react to the Historian? Zinn's quotation in the following paragraph? Please, no evasions--Comment on it directly!!

More recently, Zinn made clear that it is not just the idea of objectivity that he finds fault with, but facts themselves. In the current updated version of A People's History, the author declares: "there is no such thing as pure fact." Whether Zinn really believes this, or if it serves to rationalize intellectual dishonesty, one can only guess.
*************************************************************
Walter Hinteler- Would you like to comment on the following? Please respond directly to the comment.
quote
By now one might be thinking: On what evidence does Zinn base his varied proclamations? One can only guess. Despite its scholarly pretensions, the book contains not a single source citation. While a student in Professor Zinn's classes at Boston University or Spelman College might have received an "F" for turning in a paper without documentation, Zinn's footnote-free book is standard reading in scores of college courses across the country.
end of quote
NOT A SINGLE SOURCE CITATION??????????
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Sep, 2006 03:45 am
Of course US policies fuel "terrorism"- or resistance. How could it be otherwise?

The invasion of Iraq was a gift to jihad.
0 Replies
 
 

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