ISRAEL - IRAN - SYRIA - HAMAS - HEZBOLLAH - WWWIII?

You're hilarious Brandon, and so pathetically predictable. He described your position as idiotic, not you. But this is par for the course.

Do you have a trophy room in which you display your prizes for all the times "you win" here?

As has been said before, and can't be said too often, "winning" an internet argument is like participating in the special olympics. Even if you do "win," you're still retarded.

Nonsense. Describing a position, or an argument as idiotic is a comment on the position or agument, not on the person responsible therefore. Mr. Mountie did not disparage you, he disparaged your objection to his remarks, by pointing out that he uses Israeli sources, or sources from people who are Jewish, and cannot reasonably be described, therefore, as antisemitic.

Your standard modus operandi, though, when confronted with something against which you are unable to argue, is to make a specious claim that you've been maligned, and that you "win."

He advanced a cogent argument, and you simply declared yourself insulted, and therefore the winner.

What did you "win," Brandon--and all expenses paid vacation in Pismo Beach?

And you've made it perfectly clear that you don't wish to have a debate in which there is an objective judge, because you don't want to be declared a loser when you believe your argument is stronger regardless of someone else's opinion of the argument...

Cycloptichorn

As stated clearly before the debate began, I do not wish to appoint a judge because it raises the spectre of the winner being declared the loser

I had no desire to continue a debate with no appointed judge, where we talk past each other out of a desire to discuss different aspects of the war in Iraq.

With no objective judge, there is noone to decide whose arguments were stronger, and whose were weaker. You didn't want to discuss the topics I wanted to, I didn't want to focus on your topics, and therefore it was a pointless waste of time; which is exactly what I stated at the time.

I'd be more than happy to continue the debate, if you would like to pick a judge.

You stated that

Quote:

As stated clearly before the debate began, I do not wish to appoint a judge because it raises the spectre of the winner being declared the loser

As I am not afraid of being declared the loser, I can only assume that this 'specter' refers to your fear of being declared the loser even though your arguments are stronger; you naturally would not be afraid of me being declared the loser even though my arguments are more convincing. In your head, you have already decided that you are the winner and have no desire for anyone else to judge you a loser, because 'winning' is apparently important for your self-image and ego. Do you deny this?

Cycloptichorn

As stated clearly before the debate began, I do not wish to appoint a judge because it raises the spectre of the winner being declared the loser

Whenever I have referred to winning or losing on this board, it has been only to make the point that if A posts an argument, and B responds with an evasion, A has prevailed from the point of view of debate.

So, what did you mean when you said:

Quote:

As stated clearly before the debate began, I do not wish to appoint a judge because it raises the spectre of the winner being declared the loser

You weren't referring to the chance that you could be declared the loser?

Surely you didn't object to a judge because he might declare you the winner and me the loser.

Explain further, or my analysis stands in the face of evidence.

Also,

Quote:

Whenever I have referred to winning or losing on this board, it has been only to make the point that if A posts an argument, and B responds with an evasion, A has prevailed from the point of view of debate.

But, there isn't anyone debating here. At all. Just dicussing, and there are no winners or losers in a discussion; yet you persist in declaring yourself the winner and others losers all the time. Why?

Cycloptichorn

Your logic is incorrect. The ad hominems are of no particular concern, except that it must be recognized that an ad hominem attack not accompanied by an argument is of no significance from the standpoint of debate.

blatham wrote:

Quote:

I guess that whole trying to survive thing the Israelis do is in pretty bad taste. The most horrific atrocities by the Palestinians over the past few decades, directed against Israel and Jews in general, are, of course, excusable.

No, nor is your response a matter of "bad taste", even if evidencing thoughtlessness, a lack of desire to get educated, and an over-riding inability to be other than simple.

You'll note (actually I suppose you probably won't notice) that the predominance of sources I've noted above are either from Israeli sources or from folks within the Jewish culture. None of them make the (frankly, idiotic) argument you suggest even while criticizing Israeli government policies.

Since:

1. The totality of your argument consists of describing my (irrelevant) personali qualities, and
2. At no point do you even attempt to engage myargument that any sins by the Israelis are minor compared to the endless string of atrocities committed by the Palestinians, then,

you lose.

1. The totality of your argument consists of describing my (irrelevant) personali qualities,

The most horrific atrocities by the Palestinians over the past few decades, directed against Israel and Jews in general, are, of course, excusable.

No, nor is...

2. At no point do you even attempt to engage my argument that any sins by the Israelis are minor compared to the endless string of atrocities committed by the Palestinians,

August 25, 2006. 11:52:7
"THE JERUSALEM DECLARATION ON CHRISTIAN ZIONISM" - Statement by the Patriarch and Local Heads of Churches In Jerusalem
"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God." (Matthew 5:9)

Christian Zionism is a modern theological and political movement that embraces the most extreme ideological positions of Zionism, thereby becoming detrimental to a just peace within Palestine and Israel. The Christian Zionist programme provides a worldview where the Gospel is identified with the ideology of empire, colonialism and militarism. In its extreme form, it laces an emphasis on apocalyptic events leading to the end of history rather than living Christ's love and justice today.

We categorically reject Christian Zionist doctrines as false teaching that corrupts the biblical message of love, justice and reconciliation.

We further reject the contemporary alliance of Christian Zionist leaders and organizations with elements in the governments of Israel and the United States that are presently imposing their unilateral pre-emptive borders and domination over Palestine. This inevitably leads to unending cycles of violence that undermine the security of all peoples of the Middle East and the rest of the world.

We reject the teachings of Christian Zionism that facilitate and support these policies as they advance racial exclusivity and perpetual war rather than the gospel of universal love, redemption and reconciliation taught by Jesus Christ. Rather than condemn the world to the doom of Armageddon we call upon everyone to liberate themselves from the ideologies of militarism and occupation. Instead, let them pursue the healing of the nations!

We call upon Christians in Churches on every continent to pray for the Palestinian and Israeli people, both of whom are suffering as victims of occupation and militarism. These discriminative actions are turning Palestine into impoverished ghettos surrounded by exclusive Israeli settlements. The establishment of the illegal settlements and the construction of the Separation Wall on confiscated Palestinian land undermines the viability of a Palestinian state as well as peace and security in the entire region.

We call upon all Churches that remain silent, to break their silence and speak for reconciliation with justice in the Holy Land.

Therefore, we commit ourselves to the following principles as an alternative way:

We affirm that all people are created in the image of God. In turn they are called to honor the dignity of every human being and to respect their inalienable rights.

We affirm that Israelis and Palestinians are capable of living together within peace, justice and security.

We affirm that Palestinians are one people, both Muslim and Christian. We reject all attempts to subvert and fragment their unity.

We call upon all people to reject the narrow world view of Christian Zionism and other ideologies that privilege one people at the expense of others.

We are committed to non-violent resistance as the most effective means to end the illegal occupation in order to attain a just and lasting peace.

With urgency we warn that Christian Zionism and its alliances are justifying colonization, apartheid and empire-building.

God demands that justice be done. No enduring peace, security or reconciliation is possible without the foundation of justice. The demands of justice will not disappear. The struggle for justice must be pursued diligently and persistently but non-violently.

"What does the Lord require of you, to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God." (Micah 6:8)

This is where we take our stand. We stand for justice. We can do no other. Justice alone guarantees a peace that will lead to reconciliation with a life of security and prosperity for all the peoples of our Land. By standing on the side of justice, we open ourselves to the work of peace - and working for peace makes us children of God.

"God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation." (2 Cor 5:19)

His Beattitude Patriarch Michel Sabbah
Latin Patriarchate, Jerusalem

Archbishop Swerios Malki Mourad,
Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate, Jerusalem

Bishop Riah Abu El-Assal,
Episcopal Church of Jerusalem and the Middle East

Bishop Munib Younan,
Evangelical Lutheran Church in Jordan and the Holy Land


August 22, 2006

...And you said

Quote:

2. At no point do you even attempt to engage my argument that any sins by the Israelis are minor compared to the endless string of atrocities committed by the Palestinians,

Look at what you wrote that I responded to. You didn't make that argument you say you made. It's not there.

If you wish your posts and arguments to be treated with respect, then take the care to make them respectable.

I guess that whole trying to survive thing the Israelis do is in pretty bad taste. The most horrific atrocities by the Palestinians over the past few decades, directed against Israel and Jews in general, are, of course, excusable.