re boundaries. I've been a fan of showing kids/youth their boundaries (and this can be done by various "adventurous games").
I remember that especially my students at university liked this part - not only because it was done (usually) "learning by doing" outsite, but that was something they would have liked when being younger, they said.
The problem with such, howver, isn't just an academic one but soemthing with must be looked at ... often and carefully: namely to make clear that those boundaries are there, and that's really no need "to look" now and then if they are still there.
(I usually told that e.g. this was an example of adventure paedagogic - not a training lesson for a professional artist in the circus or a stuntmen show.)
sozobe wrote:Oof.
One thing that comes to mind for me is going into the age difference between the 12-year-old and the toddler he had nearly raped. That sex play with another 12-year-old, consensually, is much different. (That can help address some of the dirty/ bad stuff.)
How intelligent of a 12-year-old is he? Because what I'm formulating is a rather abstract (though scientifically accurate) concept of how different brains are at different ages. Like a 2-year-old is not just a smaller 12-year-old -- their brains, their SELVES, are completely different. To maybe think of people at each age range as different creatures. (I started to say he wouldn't have sex with a kitten, would he? but of course he might, I don't know enough about his situation.)
Can you possibly give examples of the results you've seen of small children being sexually violated? That even though they didn't say "no" or resist or whatever, that the results were ____? Though of course he's presumably in that category and one doesn't want to make his own future look too glum...
Oof.
Er...ain't that oof for me, it's normal work!
Yeppers...he understands a lot of the implications about age differences...and we have done the brain stuff...good points though...yep, he can "get" that...is clear about normal stuff you can't let toddlers do. I am gradually talking about results of sexual abuse. Sorry, not sue what category you think he's presumably in? Sexually abused? Nobody knows....hopefully will one day.
The can't resist is good.
Don't think too much about a particular kid, I will be explaining this stuff to all ages and stages, where possible.
Any more on why consensual activity between kids (beyond "normal" stuff...what I am seeing is way beyond that....) being not ok...I mean ways to help explain that to kids.?
Thanks guys.
FreeDuck wrote:This may be a bit simplistic, and I'm working off of the top of my head here, but I would use the same argument I use about swearing. My kids are told that some words are grown up words. We don't have "bad" words. Mom and Baba are allowed to say them, but the kids are not old enough to say them because they don't know what they mean. Similarly, sex is a grownup act. Kids can't do it because they aren't old enough to understand it completely. Of course, this leads to the problem of defining what "grown up" is, but it's pretty safe to say they won't be grownup before they're 12.
I really like the point about boundaries. That is something we bring up a lot as a way to prevent victimization as well. Your body belongs to you. Nobody is allowed to touch you under your clothes (except in the context of health and hygiene) except you. When you are older, you can allow others to touch you but it has to be with your consent. Likewise, you can't touch others under their clothes without their consent, and if they are children they can't resist so they can't consent.
Good stuff...yes.
Not wanting stuff ABOUT boundaries....I go through that stuff easily enough.
It is the more sophisticated WHY of boundaries for sexualised kids that is hard to explain...intellectually, in a way that makes sense to them.
dlowan wrote:It is the more sophisticated WHY of boundaries for sexualised kids that is hard to explain...intellectually, in a way that makes sense to them.
Pictures, models ... showing them that young bodies aren't just fully finished to do it ... by nature.
I remember that on 13, 14 year old once told me afterwrds that HE was course "ready" as was has girl friend.
I asked him, if he knew about the age for getting a driving license (18 in those days), and if he could drive one.
He could. Even a lorry, he said.
So, I placed him in lorry and asked him to drive.
I'm not sure, if he had learnt anything - but all the others saw where his feet were ... and I'm sure, they understood what I wanted to say.
At some point, I remember a point being made that the part of your body covered by a bathing suit is off limits in re: touching. That's a pretty basic boundary.
Several thoughts developing:
The problem isn't one of "misuse of sex"--the problem is one of "misuse of power".
Does Might make Right?
Do Real Heroes kick dogs? Do Real Heroes tease toddlers?
Has your kid ever been subjected to sadistic tickling from a more powerful person? If so, he's been in the position of having his own body manipulated and his reactions determined against his will.
"Forcing" premature sexuality is a bit like trying to create a full-blown flower by peeling the petals from a bud--it won't work. (And can be demonstrated to be futile).
"Children"--particularly toddlers here, although twelve-year-olds are also children--are to be protected from heavy traffic and poison and abusive and manipulative authority figures.... One of the signs of maturing in adolescents is that they take upon themselves some of the specific responsibility of protecting individual toddlers.
Would he give the toddler a loaded (or unloaded) gun to play with? If not, why not?
I so admire you for the work you do, dlowan. Wow. I can't imagine the things you must see and hear and have to keep your head straight when hearing and seeing. Thanks.
The only thing that comes to my mind is when Mo went through a little spell where he was mean to the cat and I tried to make him understand why it was wrong.
Do you think the (child) was frightened by what you were doing?
Do you think the (child) was confused about what was going on?
How would you feel if someone treated you like that?
Obviously my situation wasn't about sex but about power - the power Mo could exercise over the cat. Perhaps stripping away the "sex" of it could help the kid better understand and once he gets the wrongness of the power thing, you could apply it to sex.
Thanks folks. Please...no more boundary stuff. The boundaries talk be simple, one can do it with half one's mind elsewhere. Please assume in yout thinking that all that is done, kids know clearly what they can and cannot do.
Yep...I use the power thing and that is helpful. Bodies not ready is good for coercive behaviour, thankee, not for mutual consensual stuff.
Their bodies work just fine and dandy for these kids!
Given that their bodies work ok and all, and if play mate is not objecting, how come kids aren't supposed to have sex? This is the thing I DO explain when appropriate and necessary....the how I explain is the fun part that it is nice to get others' input on.
This is just part of what happens in therapy, of course....but simple, convincing and rational explanations are a bit hard to finesse for the kids who can think this stuff through, and, frankly, so far I am doing better re this stuff than anything I have found in the literature, which tends to just talk about no, you can't do that. That is fine for some ages and stages, but an insult to the questioning kid who is ready for and needs more.
(I don't wanna get into challenging the philosophy of that, other cultures and that...these kids have to live in our culture.)
What I do for now is simply state info re ages of consent, stuff about sexual activity with others being a grown up thing, do the brains getting cleverer stuff, do the stuff about big grown up feelings, and being to do with grown up stuff like making babies, which clearly kids are not ready for, lots of analogies re good stuff that kids can't do now but will be able to later, and use Socratic method re how come they can't, so I get them thinking about how come kids can not do stuff that adults can.
Thanks to all of you for helping re this!
It's interesting stuff, I think.
Definitely. The oof-ness is, for me, that it is both a temple-massaging puzzle and that it's not an idle intellectual pursuit, that there are serious repercussions to whatever is said.
I had assumed that the kid you were talking about was sexually abused himself, yeah, interesting that it's not necessarily the case.
I liked Noddy's idea about tickling. Many kids HATE it when they're being tickled, yet they laugh. I think there are instructive parallels there, good stuff about automatic bodily responses vs. what someone really wants.
The tickling thing we use with abused kids, re deshaming the good physical feelings they may well have had during the abuse (which is often a very tough thing for them to deal with...makes 'em feel like they must be bad or something).
I don't think it so good with consensual sexual activity with kids.
Their bits and bobs work. It out and out feels good!
It can be great with kids who find it hard to believe a semi consenting, or not actively objecting, kid didn't really find their touch the greatest thing since sliced bread!
Gah. (Is that better than "oof"?)
I do think that once you get this figured out you should write a book about it and get rich. Sounds like you're already further along than most.
Lol!
And when is your lexicon on such things as gah and oof coming on?
That is some subtle linguistic tool you have there!
Essentially all the standard answers can be reduced to:
"Because I say so."
"Because society says so."
"Trust me to know what is best for you."
"You are too young for such behavior."
All these variations appeal to authority and I have a feeling, Deb, that your kids have some reason not to put blind trust in authority.
I don't know whether Australia uses sex as a ominpresent marketing device, but if so Mad Ave Hype adds another layer of complexity to the problem. The constant Ad Atmosphere of "indulge yourself" and 'you deserve" doesn't help.
I can almost sympathize with the Victorian Moralist who came up with "because it will sap your intellectual and athletic ability and drive you mad".
With my kids we talked a lot about heroic behavior and the obligations of young men striving for heroism.
Their paternal grandmother was a twisted soul. She told me once her heart was broken when at the age of eight her little boy refused to suck her "vanilla" and "chocolate" ear lobes any more.
Knowing that this woman was in my kids' immediate universe I placed great emphasis on "You Belong to Yourself". First you listen to your parents until you are old enough to go out in the great wide world and support yourself.
One absolutely honest line about consenting sexual behavior between children is "So-and-so's mother and father and their whole extended family wouldn't like it. If you do such-and-so you may not be allowed to see __________ again."
Unfortunately, star-crossed lovers have a certain romantic appeal.
I'll continue thinking.
Why do we have bounderies for different age groups?
Drink at this age...
Smoke at that age...
Sex under these circumstances...
Drive when you're this old...
Bounderies Suck! We all wanted to do these things prior to being "allowed." Sometimes we actually took our chances and did them. Most of us are here to tell tales of our disobedience to bounderies.
Some people are not here to tell their stories because either they went outside the bounderies or someone else did and it cost them their life.
That Really Sucks, wouldn't you agree?
We have laws about all sorts of things. These laws are hundreds and sometimes thousands of years old. I know you understand bounderies and laws, 'cause you're a smart kid and you've helped me understand some things about bounderies. But, have you thought about what the world would be like if we didn't have bounderies or laws?
What if everywhere you went you saw people driving drunk? Five year olds smoking cigarettes? Stepping over people having sex on the sidewalk as you try to get into the grocery store? Eight year olds barreling down the road at 90 miles an hour in a stolen car?
What are some other things people might be doing if there were no laws or bounderies?
Would you want to live in that kind of place?
Noddy24 wrote:Essentially all the standard answers can be reduced to:
"Because I say so."
"Because society says so."
"Trust me to know what is best for you."
"You are too young for such behavior."
All these variations appeal to authority and I have a feeling, Deb, that your kids have some reason not to put blind trust in authority.
I don't know whether Australia uses sex as a ominpresent marketing device, but if so Mad Ave Hype adds another layer of complexity to the problem. The constant Ad Atmosphere of "indulge yourself" and 'you deserve" doesn't help.
I can almost sympathize with the Victorian Moralist who came up with "because it will sap your intellectual and athletic ability and drive you mad".
With my kids we talked a lot about heroic behavior and the obligations of young men striving for heroism.
Their paternal grandmother was a twisted soul. She told me once her heart was broken when at the age of eight her little boy refused to suck her "vanilla" and "chocolate" ear lobes any more.
Knowing that this woman was in my kids' immediate universe I placed great emphasis on "You Belong to Yourself". First you listen to your parents until you are old enough to go out in the great wide world and support yourself.
One absolutely honest line about consenting sexual behavior between children is "So-and-so's mother and father and their whole extended family wouldn't like it. If you do such-and-so you may not be allowed to see __________ again."
Unfortunately, star-crossed lovers have a certain romantic appeal.
I'll continue thinking.
Oh my!!!!
Big post.
Yep...the appeal to authority works damn fine for the littlies and for some others...after all, they really can't understand lots of stuff...and I guess I am just trying to stuff genies back into "appropriate" boxes for a while,.
I just want to respect the kids who can understand with real explanations...and I DO....but I bain't quite happy with the how.
squinney wrote:Why do we have bounderies for different age groups?
Drink at this age...
Smoke at that age...
Sex under these circumstances...
Drive when you're this old...
Bounderies Suck! We all wanted to do these things prior to being "allowed." Sometimes we actually took our chances and did them. Most of us are here to tell tales of our disobedience to bounderies.
Some people are not here to tell their stories because either they went outside the bounderies or someone else did and it cost them their life.
That Really Sucks, wouldn't you agree?
We have laws about all sorts of things. These laws are hundreds and sometimes thousands of years old. I know you understand bounderies and laws, 'cause you're a smart kid and you've helped me understand some things about bounderies. But, have you thought about what the world would be like if we didn't have bounderies or laws?
What if everywhere you went you saw people driving drunk? Five year olds smoking cigarettes? Stepping over people having sex on the sidewalk as you try to get into the grocery store? Eight year olds barreling down the road at 90 miles an hour in a stolen car?
What are some other things people might be doing if there were no laws or bounderies?
Would you want to live in that kind of place?
Yeppers...nice Squinney...that is a variant of what I use.
It is funny stuff, eh?
Here's what I just put in a PM to a kind person here who is giving me help from another forum she attends:
No wonder kids question and get confused... , I don't think we usually understand, really...there is so much non rational in the whole sex rules thing.
But, with the kids I deal with, there has to be a period where they learn and integrate some clear rules, even if they really are not so clear really.
Mebbe I just have to look at it as a sort of physics teaching analogy? You know, where as you become ready to deal with more advanced and complex physics, you get told that everything you have learned thus far as truth is shifting crap?
Thing is, well nurtured kids introject basic boundaries and respect and empathy the same way they breathe in oxygen. With the the kids I see it is like trying to do the same job with a clumsy ventilator apparatus. The apparatus is getting better and better [size=7](especially, for me, with the attachment/trauma/brain research based ways of working...I added that here..it's not in the PM... 
)[/size] but it is still a clumsy way of doing what we are designed to do naturally.
Mebbe that's just the way it is....and I have to get used to tripping over the tubes?
I just keep dreaming of the perfect, elegant, natural way of doing it!
More weird questions.
These really belong in Film, but I am scared they will think me some sort of prevert!
I have a kid traumatised by seeing Warhol's "Trash" before he was ready (and by other stuff, of course, but I digress).
I really don't want to have to track Trash down and watch it, (I will if I have to).
I have read crits, but they are not detailed enough.
Anyone remember the film well enough to tell me a bit about the sexual goings on/attitude to sexuality in the film?
Is there a tying up scene?
Also...anyone recall the rape scene at the beginning of Mad Max well (yes, another traumatized kid) and the general sexual "feel" of the film?
I have seen it, of course, but I don't have a detailed memory.
Noddy's post really made me think.
And then, it was weird what dlowan posted right after about film.
OK, this is going to sound disjointed, but maybe there's a connection.
I started a thread a couple of days ago, really just as a joke, called something like "scary flashback"
I'm surprised at how many people have responded with the little things that scared them in childhood, but at the same time you kept wanting to go back and look, experience them.
For me at least the allure was not the thrill of being frightened, like in a fun way on a carnival ride, but more this deeper darker thing. More like, "is it still there? will it still frighten me if I look again? maybe it's gone away, let me check."
Some things are fun scary, like maybe a roller coaster, because you know it's only a few minutes, and I don't know you can actually call it a fear rather than a physical rush.
Some things are scary, but you don't have any desire to keep going back there. Like holding you hand over an open flame. You burn yourself, it hurts and you learned that you have no desire to do that again, and don't, even though it's still a scary thing.
Sexual feelings though, can fall into this strange gray area. You feel it. It feels good.....well.....sorta....it kinda maybe feels scary too.
As an adult when I feel sexual, I don't feel scared because I know I'm in a safe place with a safe person, be it if I'm alone or with someone else.
If you are a kid, and feeling sexual, there not only this strange sex feeling you like and don't like at the same time...there's also the fear of getting caught....being told what you're doing it wrong, etc.
So, like the other stuff that scared and enticed you as a child, you keep going back.
Does that make any sense?
Chai--
I think you've got something--the thrill and lure of hijacked maturity is very powerful.
This adds another layer of complications to explaining the dangers of precocious sexuality.
I stopped reading about 1/2 way through page 3, and skimmed page 4.
so forgive me if this has been covered, but i had this idea and needed to drop it before I forgot it as I head out to the store.
Can you use puberty as an age marker?
talk about the diffrences between the body before and after , and use that to some advantage for explaining why sex isnt a good thing to do BEFORE puberty?
I know there are no real reasons even if you dont have breasts and body hair to not have sex if everything works.
but the diffrence may help 'define' a time boundry? I dont mean personal boudnry.. I mean .. something that is concrete ( some what) that helps give a kid an idea of when it might begin to be ok, and safe?
ehh?
( i hope that made sense... ) but i gotta run
