Dlowan's weird work questions (about stuff to do with kids )

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Mods, I would appreciate it if you don't move this to work, as the questions mainly relate to kids' stuff.

As some of you know, I work with kids.

Latterly, not infrequently kids with issues relating to sexual behaviour.

Now, clearly I can never say anything which might ever identify a particular child or family, but I would appreciate people's thoughts sometimes on some of the issues I face, and ideas on some better ways to explain some things.

I would be overjoyed if others shared some of their sticky moments with kids and sex, too, and got help as well!

Now, I have to work within "normal" societal guidelines, and that is just the weay it is, so I will likely not comment particularly on posts challenging the parameters of accepable sexual behaviour for kids, and for adults re kids. Not the focus of this thread.

Anyhoo. I will start with a funny story, which isn't a question really.

The other day I was working up a presentation for foster carers on managing sexualised behaviour in kids in their care.

I wanted some funny cartoons to lighten things up a bit, so I went looking on the net from work.

You guessed it. Within seconds I had porn sites popping up like the whackabunny bunnies at later stages of Monger's dratted whackabunny game!

Now, as you can imagine, my workplace has very strict guidelines about accessing porn, so I had to go running to my boss, and IT services, explaining why I had beastly porn site yuckware invading my computer!!!

You know: "I was only looking it up for the articles."

Embarrassed

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Ok.

I am always looking for ways of explaining to kids (in ways that do not make them feel in any way negative about sex or their sexuality) why it is not ok for them to have sex with other kids (I am talking under twelves here..all the way down to 2), or to touch other kids' private parts etc.

I have my own ways developing.....but who has good ways of explaining stuff like this?

I mean, with weeny kids, much explanation as such is not really so relevant, but once they can understand and talk about stuff...

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Here's one I had the other day.

A kid on the elder end of my spectrum had nearly raped a toddler....

We have been working together for a while now. Clearly, without going into it, his life has not helped him develop sensitivity about such things.

I asked him if he understood why it had not been ok to do what he did.

Very bravely in the circumstances he said no, he doesn't understand. He said he KNOWS it is wrong, because of the reactions to his being surprised in the act, but he does not really understand WHY it is wrong.

Now again, I went through with him the reasons....but I would be fascinated to learn from what others would say.

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I don't know what words I'd use, but I'd see if he had any empathy for the other person....putting himself in the other persons shoes, so to speak.

empathy is hard for a 12 year old in general, isn't it?

but with someone like the person you're dealing with, does it even exist at all?

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That would be my stand point too.

Try to make the ( attacker... ? for lack of better terms) feel and be in the other kids shoes.
Role play some uncomfortable experiences with them first to bring UP the feelings of empathy, surprise, and maybe even hit the nerve of mistrust.

Some how.. put that energy into a mirror play, so that they can see what it feels like for another child to be touched, fondled or even commented on by an older kid.

Im writting this with out my morning coffe.. so I am rambling..b ut I hope I am making some sense...

Are you allowed to promote masturbation?
If so, ring that bell like crazy.

Tell them it is ok to masturbate until their eyes are crossed.
Tell them its ok to fantasize about what ever they want.. but DONT act on it.

Maybe a parental type figure, telling a 12 year old it is ok to masturbate might give him an emotional OK on the subject and he might be more willing to stay away from other kids ( he or she, 12 or younger) and just satisfy themselves.
Wich, when someone has not learned true sympathy, or empathy, is pretty much all you can ask for

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Thanks guys....yes he has empathy, and yes I am covering that side...what I am after is the actual rational explanation stuff....you know, the words to explain why we as a culture have decided ths stuff isn't aceptable...(not including physical injury stuff...we have covered that)

I mean, I had my own way of explaining that, but I am fascinated to see if others come up with better words.

Sorry...I think I am having trouble explaining exactly what I mean........

I'll try posting roughly how I explained it, so people get the idea....but it will have to be later...

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explain that society believes children under a certain age are not able to give consent because they really don't understand the process or implications for their future.

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Deb, what a terrible situation, honey. Well, I would try and focus his attention on HIS future children. Perhaps, pictures of what his kids may look like; what they may be like; how helpless and trusting they would be, and how they would look to him for protection.

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Well, I'd done the same, Deb, explaining sex to under 12 year olds, I mean.

Fortunately, not they wanted sex - atleast not to my knowledge, but others (14+) with them.

So, certainly my approach was different.

But generally, I think, role plays are really good ... especially, when developed by them themselves (= at that point, I alwys knew them better and they knew me [which is most important I've noticed in the couple of years I worked on this subject], so I could guide their ideas).

Generally, I never knew exactly before how I did what with the children - I always "reacted" according to their 'mood' and how I thaught, they would accept me and my ideas.

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I don't want to clutter this thread, but I'm here with interest. I hope it's okay if I just throw out a few thoughts. I sometimes have had to deal with situations similiar at work (though I have worked with few kids, mostly adults w/ developmental, physical, mental: well, all mixs and sorts of issues).

#1. Wow. That kid is pretty amazing to admit he does not know. That's a bonus!

...The first thing I thought of was Boundaries talk. Specifically physical, to begin with. ....

The explanation would also be a lesson of sorts, exercise of healthy boundaries.

I thought of a song from a video I saw in 6th? grade sex ed:
(humor me please) It has always stuck with me, for many reasons

My body's
nobody's
body's but mine.
You have your own body
let me have mine.

I'm not suggesting the song or anything as an explanation. However, the idea behind it is what I would want to convey somehow.

More than likely, this person (child) has had their own boundaries violated to the point where he/she may not even know they have them (or are entitled to them). I may be way off in my own little world here....but that's the direction I would most likely take. I would demonstrate with space and boundary exercises, i guess.

Tricky. I'm listening!

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Off the top of my head:

Love and passion are very powerful emotions. The toddler is still working with a limited vocabulary. His table manners are....could be improved. He's just not old enough or mature enough to handle powerful, passionate feelings.

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Chai Tea wrote:

explain that society believes children under a certain age are not able to give consent because they really don't understand the process or implications for their future.

Great..this is what I am looking for!

Yeppers...that is one of the lines I use...I find a driving analogy is great for that stuff...you know. have to be old enough to get a license, and how come, and and still have to obey rules...still can only drive your own car unless someone else says yes, they are happy for you to touch/drive theirs...still have to obey lots of road rules...

Any ideas re how to explain that concept of age of consent re SEX really well to kids? Like....it is easy for them to see how a car is dangerous in kids' hands...it is harder to explain how sex/touching private parts has consequences before you are ready (I am speaking of consensual extensive mutual sexual behaviour) except the obvious pregnancy one for certain acts after a certain gae. I get a bit fuzzy there...talk about big feelings and bla bla bla....

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Noddy24 wrote:

Off the top of my head:

Love and passion are very powerful emotions. The toddler is still working with a limited vocabulary. His table manners are....could be improved. He's just not old enough or mature enough to handle powerful, passionate feelings.

Yep....I use that one.....use lots of analogies round not being ready to cross roads alone and all sorts of stuff little kids can't do....look at how they are so much bigger and cleverer than they used to be, but they need to be even older and cleverer re sex.

It still gets a bit fuzzy, cos sex is not obviously dangerous, often feels good if one kid is not coercive, and I don't wanna make sex seem bad or dirty or something.

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If my memories of Pearl Buck's Imperial Woman are correct--and she did accurate research--nursemaids used to use sexual play from babyhood onward as a way of controling the behavior of the heir to the throne.

I've also run across this notion of controling noble/royal in Western historical fiction, but I can't cite an author--or vouch for the accuracy of the facts.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Well, I'd done the same, Deb, explaining sex to under 12 year olds, I mean.

Fortunately, not they wanted sex - atleast not to my knowledge, but others (14+) with them.

So, certainly my approach was different.

But generally, I think, role plays are really good ... especially, when developed by them themselves (= at that point, I alwys knew them better and they knew me [which is most important I've noticed in the couple of years I worked on this subject], so I could guide their ideas).

Generally, I never knew exactly before how I did what with the children - I always "reacted" according to their 'mood' and how I thaught, they would accept me and my ideas.

Yep...my little folk are doing the doing, if you get my meaning....and yes, I develop language for them specifically.....but I am not talking protective behaviour, really (I mean I DO< but this is not what I am after here)

I am after lots of different ideas re ways of explaining.

flushd wrote:

I don't want to clutter this thread, but I'm here with interest. I hope it's okay if I just throw out a few thoughts. I sometimes have had to deal with situations similiar at work (though I have worked with few kids, mostly adults w/ developmental, physical, mental: well, all mixs and sorts of issues).

#1. Wow. That kid is pretty amazing to admit he does not know. That's a bonus!

...The first thing I thought of was Boundaries talk. Specifically physical, to begin with. ....

The explanation would also be a lesson of sorts, exercise of healthy boundaries.

I thought of a song from a video I saw in 6th? grade sex ed:
(humor me please) It has always stuck with me, for many reasons

My body's
nobody's
body's but mine.
You have your own body
let me have mine.

I'm not suggesting the song or anything as an explanation. However, the idea behind it is what I would want to convey somehow.

More than likely, this person (child) has had their own boundaries violated to the point where he/she may not even know they have them (or are entitled to them). I may be way off in my own little world here....but that's the direction I would most likely take. I would demonstrate with space and boundary exercises, i guess.

Tricky. I'm listening!

1. Yes, he is. That took bloody raw courage...for more reasons than I can explain and maintain absolute confidentiality...

Yep re boundaries.....that is something we are gradually exploring....and boundaries have. of course, been not right in lots of ways plus a lot of other stuff. But he for sure knows WHAT he isn't allowed to do.......we are working on the whys of respectful interaction and his very confused ideas about sexuality generally.

Of course, kids with complex trauma histories are reacting sexually from all sorts of triggers.....I am after stuff around the rational/verbal part of the issue.

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Wow! What a situation to be in!

I'll keep my options open here and think about things.

Many times, kids become sexualized after abuse.

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Oof.

One thing that comes to mind for me is going into the age difference between the 12-year-old and the toddler he had nearly raped. That sex play with another 12-year-old, consensually, is much different. (That can help address some of the dirty/ bad stuff.)

How intelligent of a 12-year-old is he? Because what I'm formulating is a rather abstract (though scientifically accurate) concept of how different brains are at different ages. Like a 2-year-old is not just a smaller 12-year-old -- their brains, their SELVES, are completely different. To maybe think of people at each age range as different creatures. (I started to say he wouldn't have sex with a kitten, would he? but of course he might, I don't know enough about his situation.)

Can you possibly give examples of the results you've seen of small children being sexually violated? That even though they didn't say "no" or resist or whatever, that the results were ____? Though of course he's presumably in that category and one doesn't want to make his own future look too glum...

Oof.

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This may be a bit simplistic, and I'm working off of the top of my head here, but I would use the same argument I use about swearing. My kids are told that some words are grown up words. We don't have "bad" words. Mom and Baba are allowed to say them, but the kids are not old enough to say them because they don't know what they mean. Similarly, sex is a grownup act. Kids can't do it because they aren't old enough to understand it completely. Of course, this leads to the problem of defining what "grown up" is, but it's pretty safe to say they won't be grownup before they're 12.

I really like the point about boundaries. That is something we bring up a lot as a way to prevent victimization as well. Your body belongs to you. Nobody is allowed to touch you under your clothes (except in the context of health and hygiene) except you. When you are older, you can allow others to touch you but it has to be with your consent. Likewise, you can't touch others under their clothes without their consent, and if they are children they can't resist so they can't consent.

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"Can't resist so they can't consent", that's a good one.

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I like the point about the age difference and explaining that younger children aren't just smaller 12 year olds, and also about trying to get a handle on actual tangible consequences for the other child.

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Dlowan's weird work questions (about stuff to do with kids )

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