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Bring the Troops Home

 
 
paull
 
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 09:36 am
So they can sit around the barracks feeling like losers.

Quote:
Nude cyclists are peddling threadbare ideas

June 18, 2006

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Perusing reports of this month's World Naked Bike Ride in San Francisco, I was impressed by the way the acres of sagging mottled flesh stayed ruthlessly on message: "RE-ELECT GORE" was the slogan on one man's bottom, as fetchingly dimpled as a Palm Beach chad, while beneath the "GORE" of his butt his upper thighs proudly proclaimed "NO WAR" (left leg) "FOR OIL" (right). "I'D RATHER HAVE THIS BUSH FOR PRESIDENT" read one lady's naked torso with an arrow pointing down to the presidential material in question. What a bleak comment on the bitter divisions in our society that even so all-American a tradition as nude bicycling down Main Street should now be so nakedly partisan. It's as if the republic itself is now divided into a red buttock and a blue buttock permanently cleaved by the bicycle seat of war.

OK, this metaphor's jumped the bike path. Let me see if I can find some historical analogy. Ah, here we go: Back in 1559, devastated by the loss of her last continental possession, Mary Tudor, England's queen, said that when she died they would find "Calais" engraved on her heart. When the Democratic Party dies, you'll find "NO WAR FOR OIL" engraved on its upper thighs. Despite the Republicans' best efforts to self-destruct, I can't see the Democrats taking either the House or Senate this November. As I said a few months back, even a loser has to have someone to lose to, and the Dems refuse to fulfill even that minimum requirement. It may be true that on critical issues such as Iraq and immigration the GOP is divided. But it's a much bigger stretch to conclude that the beneficiary of those divisions is likely to be the Democratic Party, which is about the last place one would look for a serious position on either issue.

In that respect, the most significant portent for the Dems may not be their stupendous flopperoo in the California special election nor the death of Zarqawi nor the non-indictment of Karl Rove -- though, taken together, they render pretty threadbare the Democrat strategy of relying on Republican immigration splits, bad news in Iraq and the GOP's "culture of corruption." No, the revealing development is Joe Lieberman's troubles in Connecticut. Six years ago, he was the party's beaming vice presidential nominee. Two years ago, he was an also-ran for the presidential nomination. This summer, he's an incumbent senator struggling not to lose in his own primary to a candidate who's the darling of the anti-war netroots left. What's the senator done to offend the base? Nothing -- except be broadly supportive of the Iraq campaign and other military goals in the war on terror. He's one of a very few Democrats who give the impression they'd like America to win.

But in today's Democratic Party it's the mainstream that gets marginalized. Forty years ago, George Aiken recommended that in Vietnam America "declare victory and go home." Today, the likes of Jack Murtha, John Kerry and Ted Kennedy have come up with their own ingenious improvement: Declare defeat and go home. Having voted for the war before he voted against it, Sen. Kerry has now effortlessly retwisted his pretzel of a spine: Last week, he voted to lose Iraq even though we're winning it. Even if there's no civil war, even if the insurgents' leader is dead and his network in ruins, even if the Iraqis are making huge progress in self-government, even if by any historical standard everything's going swell, the Defeaticrats refuse to budge: America needs to throw in the towel and hightail it out of there by the end of the year, which is the date Kerry is demanding we surrender by.

It's often said that in our bitter fractious partisan politics much of the Democratic base's anger boils down to sheer loathing of Bush. If he were gone, if it were a Clinton or Gore waging war in Iraq, the Dems would be cool with it. I think not. Their fury with Lieberman suggests a corrosion that goes far deeper than mere Bush Derangement Syndrome. The Democrats may be prepared to go along with some Clintonian pseudo-warmongering -- the desultory lobbing of a few cruise missiles at Slobodan or that Sudanese aspirin factory -- but, when it comes to the projection of hard power in the national interest, the left cannot get past Vietnam. Indeed, the reaction to Peter Beinart's ringing call for a reassertion of "liberal internationalism" -- ringing in the sense that nobody's picking up -- suggests that even his quaintly dated Eurocentric Sept. 10 ineffectually respectable multilateralism has few takers among today's left.

In the early '70s, when Kerry was insisting we'd get out of Vietnam at very little cost, he at least could plead ignorance: He didn't know what would come after. In 2006, we all know what followed: boat people, Cambodia's killing fields, globalized dominoes falling from Grenada to Iran. When Murtha, Kerry and Co. effectively demand that America agree to retraumatize itself in the humiliation of an even bigger geopolitical bug-out, one assumes they're failing to consider where the dominoes would fall this time round -- in Afghanistan, in Jordan, in Turkey, and beyond. It would end the American moment: Why would Russia, China or even Belgium take American power seriously ever again?

Meanwhile, Bush's "approval numbers" are back up. Maybe even in double figures again. The mistake the media make is to assume that the 60, 80, 97.43 percent of the electorate that "disapproves" of Bush is therefore pro-Democrat. I doubt it. On the Republican side, some of those antipathetic to Bush were never in favor of liberating Iraq but figure now we're in it we need to win it. Others were in favor but revile Bush for pussyfooting around not just with the insurgents but with the Iranians and the Syrians. Others are broadly supportive of Bush on the war but are furious with him for supporting the No Mexican Left Behind immigration bill. None of these demographics seems particularly fertile soil for the Democratic Party, especially a Democratic Party willing to devour Joe Lieberman in the interests of Defeaticrat purity.

Those naked bicyclists are emblematic. The flesh is willing but the spirit is weak, too weak to articulate what ideas animate the party other than disrobed defeatistism. Was it a male or female bottom that said "WAR IS NOT THE ANSWER"? It seems more likely that this November the electorate will conclude, yet again, that the Democrats are not the answer.

©Mark Steyn 2006
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 09:53 am
Re: Bring the Troops Home
paull wrote:
So they can sit around the barracks feeling like losers.quote]

My preference would be to leave them in Iraq so they can get their guts blown all over the f**king place, leaving behind a widow and young children, or better yet come home a torso in a wheelchair that will probably live for 40 more years feeling like a REAL loser and placing an impossible financial and emotional drain on ther loved ones. i

In this way, they will feel the warmth of glory that comes from that sort of sacrifice for country and king. Hell, that sure beats a normal life.
0 Replies
 
paull
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 10:01 am
throbber, I am SHOCKED that you disagree!
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 10:07 am
paull wrote:
throbber, I am SHOCKED that you disagree!


have a cup of herbal tea and take a deep breath.... :wink:
0 Replies
 
paull
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 10:11 am
That IS my beverage of choice! Until the sun is over the yardarm. Have a good one.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 12:06 pm
With U.S. casualty rates just a bit over .01% after 3 years, Iraq doesn't really seem all that dangerous. During the Civil War casualty rates of over 30% in half an hour, was much worse yet the troops soldiered on to the end. I've seen nothing to suggest that troop moral and dedication to continue the fight isn't very, very high.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 02:12 pm
Study: Army stretched to breaking point

Quote:


Maybe one of the reasons there seems to be a rise in violence towards Iraqis by our troops is because the stress of the extended tours in a very violent and unfriendly country. Three more GI's were charged with murder.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060619/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_soldiers_charged
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 02:29 pm
Asherman wrote:
With U.S. casualty rates just a bit over .01% after 3 years, Iraq doesn't really seem all that dangerous. During the Civil War casualty rates of over 30% in half an hour, was much worse yet the troops soldiered on to the end. I've seen nothing to suggest that troop moral and dedication to continue the fight isn't very, very high.


The U.S. Civil War was fought at a time when frontline medical care consisted largely of amputating limbs on the spot with filthy surgical instruments which inevitably -- and almost invariably -- caused blood poisoning and gangrene. Aproximately twice as many soldiers died from causes other than combat. Dysintery was rampant. If you were shot right through the heart or between the eyes, you were one of the lucky ones. A broken leg, on the other hand, would probably mean a painful, lingering death. Bearing in mind the kind of medical care available today, more than 2,000 casualties so far in Iraq is a fairly high count.

The people who fought in the Civil War, mostly believed in the cause they were fighting for, whether it was for the right to self-determination (the South) or the maintenance of the Union (the North). Today's U.S. Army consists entirely of mercenaries whose loyalty is largely to their immediate leaders, not some lofty, patriotric ideal. Bring back the draft, I say, and see how soon this nonsense is ended. The parents of draftees would beseige Washington. The parents of volunteer enlistees can't really do that (although, as we know, one mother has done it): after all, these guys volunteered for it, didn't thay.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 04:44 pm
Yes, medical science has progressed tremendously in treating battlefield trauma even in the last 20 years. I don't see how that changes my point that the casualty rates in Iraq are mercifully small. Iraq is hazardous as all combat is, but in terms of sheer numbers of casualties and rates, Iraq is not that big a deal compared to other conflicts.

I think it unfair to characterize our young soldiers as mercenaries. These are not "soldiers for hire" to the highest bidder. These are our sons and daughters who volunteered to spend part of their youth in service to their country. Many enlisted in the wake of 9/11 filled with the same patriotic zeal that flooded recruiting stations after December 7th. These are some of the nations best and brightest young people. We have trained and armed them as well as we could to protect them from the dangers of combat. The officer corps is made up of outstanding leaders with above average educations. This military represents all sectors of our country, and the soldiers willingly make great sacrifice to protect and defend our nation. Please, a little respect is due those who are serving.
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 07:16 pm
I agree, Ash, that some (perhaps most) of the post-9/11 enlistees did volunteer out of a sense of patriotic duty, tinged with frustration and rage at the events of 9/11/01. A few others probably just wanted to see some action, much like Ernest Hemingway enlisting in the Italian Ambulance Corps in World War I, long before the US had joined that fray. He wanted to see a war up close and personal.

That said, I mean no disrespect to the men and women in uniform. I used the word "mercenary" in the sense that a professional soldier is just that -- a member of a profession, rather than a committed citizen-soldier. And I completely agree with you that today's US armed forces are made up of the best-educated and most able individuals in our history. It's unfortunate that this administration is using them in such a shoddy fashion.

I am a believer in conscription, however, as the means of defense envisioned by the Founding Fathers. Firstly, I believe that a citizen of a free country is individually responsible for the defense of that country and that this task should not be relegated to professionals (okay, I won't call them mercenaries). And, secondly, I distrust a standing professional army. Its alliegance tends to be to the generals, rather than the people.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 07:39 pm
One death in this unnecessary war is one too many.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Jun, 2006 10:40 pm
I'm particularily fond of those who sit at home and support the war whilst rationalizing and comparing the death rates of "those other wars"....especially those wars fought on different terms, under different pretenses and with a completely different military strategy.
(by the way Ash the war you are referring to produced more than 970 000 casualties (3% of the population). That you claim there were "casualty rates of over 30% in half an hour" is an awfully misleading statistic, given how many people can be wiped out with a single blast from either a primative or contemporary weapon in Iraq.
I guess if the death toll is low enough, and it's not you, your kids, your husband, wife or partner, and there's no chance you'll be offered up as cannon fodder, then bust out the flags and the anthems.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2006 09:59 am
I served during the Eisenhower administration, and my son still serves today.

The Civil War is only one historical example of the sort of casualty rates one should expect during active combat operations. Casualty rates for other American campaigns/wars have been smaller, but still many times greater than we've seen so far in Iraq and Afghanistan. I, and many other conservatives, are dismayed by those who sit comfortably at home and compare our soldiers to Nazi storm troopers, or cry crocodile tears while demanding that they be brought home and that their leaders be tried for war crimes.

During a number of Civil War battles 30%+ casualty rates were not uncommon. Lethality of wounds during that time was much higher than it is today, and the stress on the troops much greater. Lethality of homemade bombs is probably less dangerous than marching upright into an entrenched enemy on the high ground. Our soldiers are better trained and equipped than any previous American soldiers. Modern battle field medical support further reduces the number of persons who die, but in earlier conflicts thousands died of what today are treatable wounds. We've gotten much better at preserving the lives of our troops and avoiding unnecessary collateral casualties. The effectiveness and efficiency of our military operations has at the same time made the blood cost of attacking them directly almost unthinkable. The enemy uses IEDs because that is the best they can do, and, aside from the propaganda value of such attacks, the overall effectiveness of that tactic isn't really all that good.

At the end of the Civil War you state that the population was reduced by 3% (I haven't a reference handy, but that doesn't sound unreasonable). By what percentage has the American population been decreased since 9/11, and what percentage of that is directly related to combat casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan? Point with a lot of zeros before we get to a one.

Whether the ongoing operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary and justified is a matter of opinion. There continues to be support for these campaigns on both side of the aisle in Congress, including that darling of the left Sen. Clinton. 9/11 happened, in part, because the enemy didn't believe that the U.S. had the grit to retaliate in a sustained attack on their bases of power in the Middle East. They expected a few missiles launched into the desert and protracted crying before the UN where nothing would happen. There are no more Al Queda/Taliban terrorist training camps in Afghanistan. The Taliban suffered sever punishment for their open support of Bin Ladin and his gang of cut throats. The People of Afghanistan were freed from an oppressive theocracy, though it isn't yet clear whether they will be able to sustain their freedom. Saddam, after decades of violating cease fire conditions, support for terrorism and "ethnic cleansing", is no more. The Ba'ath Party is out of power, but continues to sabotage every effort to rebuild Iraq into a peaceful pluralist society. I believe they are losing and will be unable to sustain even the current rate of terror indefinitely. Attrition is their enemy, as appeal to the hand-wringing portion of the American public is there greatest hope.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2006 10:20 am
Iraq is not Afghanistan and there was/is no connection between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein despite implied links made by people such as the above poster. Because we were attacked by AQ headed by Bin Laden does not mean that every country in the Middle East can be justifiably be attacked by the US. There should be some reason other than vague might happens and events that happened in the past. There was nothing about Iraq which stood out as being more a threat than a lot of other countries such as North Korea.

We were in middle of Iraq inspections which could have been completed and a vote could have been allowed to take place which decided what steps needed (if any) to take place. Had we done so we wouldn't have went in there half cocked with no plan for what would happen in the event all the rosy predictions of being greeted as liberators failed to take place.

There is absolutely no comparison between WW2 and the Iraq war because one was entirely justified and one was completely unjustified. If the war was justified there would be no anti-war side in strong enough numbers to mean anything. (There are always people who are against any wars) The Pro Iraq war people just like to drag up past wars in order to bolster the support of this one which is telling in itself.

We are not wanted in Iraq even by the leaders but they know that they are not ready to deal with the insurgency on their own right now, if ever. I don't see how we any choice but to stay there, in my opinion as much as I wish like anything it were otherwise.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2006 10:53 am
"Whether the ongoing operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary and justified is a matter of opinion. There continues to be support for these campaigns on both side of the aisle in Congress, including that darling of the left Sen. Clinton."

The radical Islamic terrorist organizations are not confined to a single nation, but operate from a "center of gravity" in South West Asia. Afghanistan was they only nation that openly sponsored the terrorists, while others are more discrete and covert in their support. Even in Middle Eastern countries where the governments are strong supporters of the West and peaceful co-existence, large parts of the population in the region support the radical terrorist movement. This is true in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. Iran, Syria, and Yemen, among others remain dedicated to any tactic that will further their own agendas and idealism. Iraq had pushed the envelope and was in violation of numerous cease fire agreements ... all that was necessary was to give them an ultimatum and finish a job that should have been done a decade earlier. Stop crying for that pitiful murderer that stands in the dock today.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2006 11:00 am
Sheesh, noone is crying for Saddam... but taking our eye off of the ball by attacking Iraq is not a positive step in securing our safety, at all.

Ash, you state that

Quote:
The Ba'ath Party is out of power, but continues to sabotage every effort to rebuild Iraq into a peaceful pluralist society.


This ignores the fact that the violence in Iraq is also being carried out in large part by the Shiite militias, of which there seem to be no control by the central government or the US.

Somehow I doubt that attrition is going to end the terrorist threat, as more are born all the time...

Cycloptichorn
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2006 11:38 am
Asherman wrote:
"Whether the ongoing operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary and justified is a matter of opinion. There continues to be support for these campaigns on both side of the aisle in Congress, including that darling of the left Sen. Clinton."

The radical Islamic terrorist organizations are not confined to a single nation, but operate from a "center of gravity" in South West Asia. Afghanistan was they only nation that openly sponsored the terrorists, while others are more discrete and covert in their support. Even in Middle Eastern countries where the governments are strong supporters of the West and peaceful co-existence, large parts of the population in the region support the radical terrorist movement. This is true in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. Iran, Syria, and Yemen, among others remain dedicated to any tactic that will further their own agendas and idealism. Iraq had pushed the envelope and was in violation of numerous cease fire agreements ... all that was necessary was to give them an ultimatum and finish a job that should have been done a decade earlier. Stop crying for that pitiful murderer that stands in the dock today.


I was against Senator Clinton and all the rest of those democrats then when they supported the war in Iraq and I am still against those (democrats) who still justifying the war in Iraq. What's your point with that repeated statement?

Your exactly right, the AQ and other militant Islamic is not confined to a single nation which is why it made/makes no sense to single out Iraq based on what happened to us on 9/11. Saddam Hussien did not push any evelopes at the time when we invaded, he was cooperating with the inspections. There were some unanswered questions regarding the destructions of some weapons, but that could easily been worked out or not. Considering the rest of the world and it's dangers at the end of the day at the time of the invasion of Iraq, saddam was contained and not worth going to war over.
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2006 11:57 am
And the Shite militias are operating in "self-defense" against violence against them carried out by outfits like Zarqawi's. It would be better if they operated inside the Iraqi government, but until it shows itself capable we shouldn't be too surprised that Shites take some measures for security of their people.

"Whether the ongoing operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary and justified is a matter of opinion. There continues to be support for these campaigns on both side of the aisle in Congress."
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2006 12:05 pm
Asherman wrote:
Whether the ongoing operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary and justified is a matter of opinion.

That's correct. Of course, some opinions are better than others. And that's true regardless of how bold-faced and blue those opinions might be.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2006 12:10 pm
Asherman I question your numbers.

You are claiming a casualty rate of 0.01% for US soldiers in Iraq (this means only 1 out of 10,000 is a casualty).

I am guessing you are getting this by dividing the number of US casualties (which is about 21,000 or 2500 if you are only talking about deaths), by the total number of people who have fought in Iraq? To get at the 0.01% figure this would be 210,000,000 service people who have fought in Iraq? This seems a might bit high.

If you are only talking about deaths, you would need to have a 25 million soldiers who have been in Iraq. This still seems a bit high... but we will go with it.

Now you compare this with the number of soldiers who were active in the civil war (we are not talking about one battle here since for Iraq you must have used all soldiers in country in order to get even in the millions as you are claiming.

So you make three claims that I find hard to believe.

1) There have been 25 million solders in Iraq.
2) Nearly one third of active duty soldiers died in a half hour period durint the Civil war.

Also for the record, I speak as a liberal.... Hillary is not our darling, in fact most true liberals hope she goes away never to be heard of again.




When did this happen?
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