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Bring the Troops Home

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2006 12:12 pm
Quote:
And the Shite militias are operating in "self-defense" against violence against them carried out by outfits like Zarqawi's.


This was probably true to begin with, but there exists much available evidence that events have moved far past this point, and into a completely different realm; one of ethnic violence and sectarian violence, perpetrated by both sides of the fence.

Therefore, it isn't accurate to simply blame 'baathists' for the violence going on in Iraq today, as this doesn't represent the situation accurately. It doesn't matter if one side claims they are acting in 'self-defense' or not, they are still perpetrating violence and murder on a regular basis.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Jun, 2006 12:35 pm
EBrown,

You are quite right to question my numbers. First, I should not have compared apples and oranges. Civil War casualties of 30% or higher were common in many battles, and the casualty rates in Iraq are for the entire 3+ years of campaigning. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers on each side of the Civil War were wounded and killed, while the total for Iraq is 21,000 over roughly the same period of time. At the end of the Civil War the South, which suffered greater attrition, was totally demoralized, but the Union forces never had their moral fully broken. Today there is no sign that troop moral is failing.

My numbers also don't compute properly. 2,500 deaths out of 150,000 troops on the ground today is about .01%. However, the total number of casualties, and that should include wounds, for the three years is around 21,000. Properly we should divide 23,500 by the total number who have served in Iraq for the last 3 years. If that number is 500,000, then the casualty rate is about 5%. My failure to "move the decimal" in the earlier calculation erroneously made 1% seem to be .01%.

I was mistaken in both my methodology and math. Sorry about that. Good catch, EBrown.
0 Replies
 
xguymontagx
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 01:33 am
Have you ever been in the military?

Quote:
Quote:
Today's U.S. Army consists entirely of mercenaries whose loyalty is largely to their immediate leaders, not some lofty, patriotric ideal.


This sounds like you are confusing the U.S. with the Roman empire.


I've spent the last five years in the military(I joined about two months before 9/11).


No one I know in the military is THAT loyal to their immediate leaders. Soldiers are as loyal to their immediate leaders as civilians are to their boss at work. A good boss will get a persons loyalty, a bad one will get a persons disgust. I wouldn't do something immoral just because I was ordered. Most soldiers would not and don't have to(we are given dozens of classes about war crimes and not being ordered to commit them). A large portion of soldiers I know are fairly patriotic. Of course if you said to most soldiers deployed, "hey we are going to stop paying you, but you do get to chose if you want to go home right now." Most soldiers would not stay. That does not make them mercenaries though. After all many soldiers have families and bills to pay. Also if enemies were on and attacking american soil, I really do think that almost every soldier would fight without pay to defend their country.

I'm for the constitutional rights we all have. That is what I WOULD fight to defend. Does that sound like a mercenary to you?

Mercenaries fight for the highest bidder. I wouldn't and most soldiers would not go fight for a middle eastern, european, or asian country just because they were paying more. I mean sure some would be tempted by a ridiculously high figure like a million dollars, but then who wouldn't be tempted?

By the way compare many army specialties to the same job in the civilian world and more often than not you will that the civilians make much more than the soldier. sometimes twice as much a year...for the same job.

so yeah you do have professional soldiers who get paid, but the pay really isn't all that much to brag about.

Here's were I agree with you.

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Quote:
Bring back the draft, I say, and see how soon this nonsense is ended.
The parents of draftees would beseige Washington. The parents of volunteer enlistees can't really do that (although, as we know, one mother has done it): after all, these guys volunteered for it, didn't they.


I have been saying this for the last three years. People back home for the most part live their lives normally and the war doesn't affect them. It's not real for them. However alot of people who support the president, the war and the presidents handling of the war would change their minds if their own son or daughter or they themselves had to go fight in it. It would suddenly become real for them and they would begin to care alot more.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 05:41 am
Who you with, montguy?
I'm with B Co, 264th Med BN, FSHTX.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 06:51 am
Welcome to the threads, xguymontagx and thank you for the post.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 06:53 am
Sorry for bollixing your name - xguymontagx
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Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 08:43 am
Always glad to have another poster here who is active military. You bring direct experience to discussions that far too often are dominated by folks who haven't a clue about what the military today is like. For a great many Americans war has become an abstract concept framed by movies and television. Your opinion may not always agree with others here, but they will generally be respected.

Stay safe. Duty, Honor, Country ....... Hoooah!
0 Replies
 
xguymontagx
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 12:21 pm
Actually I am stationed in Afghanastan as I write this so...well I'd rather not say my unit.

I know it's a bit over cautious.

maybe when I get the ability to PM I'll send you a message.

hey asherman does you name have anything to do with the wheel of time?
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 04:37 pm
My nickname for many years was "Al" an allusion to my similarity to the "What Me Worry" Alfred E. Newman character. For a number of years my internal email address in government was Asherman, and some came to believe that was my full and actual name. Its the name I use when signing my writing or paintings. Recently I've shortened it to Ash, and I like the allusion to the residue after a fire has burnt itself out.

Though it may seem that what you are doing isn't appreciated by some of the American People, remember that far more of us support your efforts and hope you can accomplish your mission quickly and with a minimum of suffering.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 07:29 pm
Quote:
hey asherman does you name have anything to do with the wheel of time?


Awesome series, one of my favorites! I didn't even think of that in connection with Ash's name - though A'sha'man is pretty close.

Cheers

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 10:21 pm
dude - not over cautious at all - it was probably a stupid question on my part. And unlike Asherman, I think the vast vast majority of Americans wish the troops well, but think we shouldn't have gone in the first place.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 10:53 pm
I believe that most Americans support our troops and with them well. There is, however a very vocal and loud minority who like to compare our soldiers to Nazi SS troopers. There are many more whose opinion is that the U.S. should not have soldiers serving in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, but who genuinely are concerned that our troops are in harms way.

My opinion is that intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq were justified, and that the presence of our troops in those places is a positive thing both for the United States, and for the people of those two unfortunate countries. Both environments are highly dangerous, but, I believe, that the troops are up to the task and actually face fewer dangers than most U.S. soldiers have in past conflicts. We mourn every loss and injury, but those must be balanced against the larger goal of securing our nation and people from the terrorist tactics spawned by the enemies you face everyday. We applaud you, and honor your dedication to the nation. Now, please be careful both of your personal safety and the saftey of your comrades in arms.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jun, 2006 11:07 pm
Quote:
There is, however a very vocal and loud minority who like to compare our soldiers to Nazi SS troopers.


Oh, I don't think that they are that loud, as they are mostly filtered out by those on both the left and the right.

I believe there may exist very different views on what 'support the troops' means. Those on the left want the troops to come home alive, those on the right want the troops to be able to do their job with honor. Both valid positions to take.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2006 09:12 pm
That whole sentence about us going into "Afghanistan and Iraq", though maybe flowing smoothly off the tongue, is fraught with all the conflict about our country and our purpose for fighting that a lot of us feel.

We retaliated against Afghanistan because that's where bin Laden was.

We attacked Iraq because Bush had a hardon to do it, and he used 9/11 as an excuse.

All pronouncements about us "standing down as they stand up" notwithstanding, we are going about establishing permanent bases in Iraq that you never hear talk about, and we never talk about the big elephant in the living room - namely we have to control that region's oil. That has to rank high in our true motivation for staying there - lofty pronouncements notwithstanding.

And it tears me right the frikkin hell up inside, and it makes me want to slap the sh*t out of people who buy everything Bush sells without question, and if called to go, I'll go - because I vowed to.

This ain't no wave-the-flag-play-a-Toby-Keith-song-and-go-about-your-business-proposition, this Iraq war. There is some seriously f*cked up sh*t going on.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jun, 2006 09:54 pm
Ask "The Troops."

If you care about "The Troops" then surely you care about what they think.

Surely you are not going to suggest that the young men and women who are risking their lives for American policy are incapable of intelligently determining whether or not that risk is worth it.

Overwhelmingly, "The Troops" in Iraq believe in what they are doing and want America to value their efforts and their considerable sacrifices.

It may very well be the case that war supporters don't appreciate the degree of sacrifice of our young men and women. It is equally the case that war opponents do not appreciate the willingness and choice of these young men and women to accept this sacrifice.

Ask "The Troops."

Has anyone done so?

Do these men and women want us, here in the Homeland, to endorse and praise their actions and efforts or to organize to bring them home?

Ask "The Troops."

Has anyone done so?
0 Replies
 
xguymontagx
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 12:00 am
Quote:
Quote:
This ain't no wave-the-flag-play-a-Toby-Keith-song-and-go-about-your-business-proposition, this Iraq war.


I ABSOLUTELY LOATHE THAT SONG ABOUT WHEN THE TOWERS FELL.



I find it interesting how much more people talk about Iraq than Afghanastan.

Look in the newspaper and on you average day you will see many more articles about Iraq.

I was at a party about a month before I was deployed overseas and told this girl who was there I was being sent to Afghanastan. She gave me a puzzled look and said, "why what's going on there?"

I couldn't believe it.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 05:54 am
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Ask "The Troops."

If you care about "The Troops" then surely you care about what they think.

Surely you are not going to suggest that the young men and women who are risking their lives for American policy are incapable of intelligently determining whether or not that risk is worth it.

Overwhelmingly, "The Troops" in Iraq believe in what they are doing and want America to value their efforts and their considerable sacrifices.

It may very well be the case that war supporters don't appreciate the degree of sacrifice of our young men and women. It is equally the case that war opponents do not appreciate the willingness and choice of these young men and women to accept this sacrifice.

Ask "The Troops."

Has anyone done so?

Do these men and women want us, here in the Homeland, to endorse and praise their actions and efforts or to organize to bring them home?

Ask "The Troops."

Has anyone done so?


U.S. Troops in Iraq: 72% Say End War in 2006
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 08:16 am
all major polls show that the public favors withdrawals

Quote:
Polls, Pundits and Pols
You'd never know it from some of the reporting and bloviating on the debate over an Iraq withdrawal, but all major polls show that the public favors withdrawals, with strong support for a timeline or total pullout within a year.

(June 22, 2006) -- The new efforts by Republicans in Congress, and in the media, to use Iraq to their advantage by branding Democrats as favoring a "cut-and-run'" policy, has received wide coverage in the past week. Often pundits, and even reporters, have suggested that this is working, because Americans are not in favor of a "hasty" withdrawal. Democrats are in shambles, they report, as they fear that proposals for setting a timetable for withdrawal put forward by Sen. John Kerry and Rep. John Murtha will prove disastrous for the party in the November elections, due to the alleged unpopularity of this stance.

This conclusion, however, flies in the face of surveys by all major polling firms, as E&P has chronicled over the past two years.

It's one thing when polls are dismissed, ignored or twisted by political or media spinmeisters. But when journalists in their news stories do it, it is downright misleading.

Take Jim Rutenberg and Adam Nagourney in The New York Times today.

They produced a front-pager on the Republicans' unexpected confidence on this issue, and declared: "Some polls show a majority of Americans continue to think that entering Iraq was a mistake, and pollsters say independent voters are particularly open to the idea of setting some sort of timetable for withdrawal, the very policy Democrats have embraced and Republicans are now fighting."

The fact is, not "some" polls, but virtually every major poll shows that American have long declared that going to war against Iraq was a mistake.

And far more than "independent voters" are drawn to withdrawal. Every major poll reveals that a majority of Americans advocate withdrawals from Iraq, with large numbers wanting this to be quite speedy, and most wanting a full pullout in a year or so (Kerry's idea) or by the end of next year.

This is hardly a "some" position. A CNN poll, for example, conducted June 14-15 found that 53% favored a timetable for withdrawal, while 41% opposed it. Yet newspaper editorials, as usual, remain mute on this and the Senate today soundly trounced the Democrats' withdrawal pleas, even a wishy-washy one put forward by Sen. Carl Levin.

In highlighting the Republicans' new spin on Iraq, Rutenberg and Nagourney stated, "The approach might yet be upended by more problems in Iraq." This laughably suggests that voters are okay with the current situation -- so long as it doesn't get worse.

On Wednesday, Charles Babington in The Washington Post noted "polls showing that many Americans oppose the war but do not want to leave Iraq amid such chaos that it is a breeding ground for terrorism." Again: All major surveys show that a clear majority do want us to "leave Iraq," partly because of that very "chaos."

And how is this for a bottom line poll result? The CBS News poll taken less than two weeks ago asked if what has transpired in Iraq was "worth the loss of American life and other costs." The result: 62% said "no."

Yet Sen. John McCain actually suggested today that any timetable would be "a significant step on the road to disaster" -- as if we haven't been on that road for three years, and already found disaster.

I happen to have a full printout of a detailed NBC News/Wall Street Journal survey completed 10 days ago. It shows, among other things, that 57% of respondents support reducing troop levels now, with only 35% favoring current levels. The vast majority of those backing withdrawal favor setting a timellne. The same poll finds just 35% supporting the job President Bush is doing on Iraq.

But here's the key finding. The pollsters stated a series of positions, ranging from opposing gay marriage to repealing the estate tax, and asked if a candidate running for congress who embraced such a position was more or less likely to gain their vote. One position was: "Favors pulling all American troops out of Iraq within the next 12 months."

That couldn't be more simple and clear. The result? Some 54% said they would be "more likely" to vote for such a candidate and only 32% said "less likely."

They were then asked to rank the most important issues for this fall's election. Iraq topped the list at 53% with illegal immigration far behind at 32%. This survey, and recent ones from Gallup, strongly show that the public very much prefers Democrats in this year's races and, in fact, would like to see a Democratic congress to balance the Republican White House.

Of course, time will tell if they actually go ahead and vote their beliefs. But reading the latest poll results, one might conclude the opposite of what many reporters and pundits now seem to be suggesting: that, actually, the GOP faces an uphill fight on re-selling the Iraq war, now in its fourth year.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 10:10 am
Ask the troops; has anyone done so?

that's what you kept saying....

Yeah, I have. They might say one thing to me and another if a field-grade officer or someone with a microphone asks what they think, but they ain't all hepped-up about this Iraq deal.

Have you asked any of 'em?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 12:19 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Ask "The Troops."

If you care about "The Troops" then surely you care about what they think.

Surely you are not going to suggest that the young men and women who are risking their lives for American policy are incapable of intelligently determining whether or not that risk is worth it.

Overwhelmingly, "The Troops" in Iraq believe in what they are doing and want America to value their efforts and their considerable sacrifices.

It may very well be the case that war supporters don't appreciate the degree of sacrifice of our young men and women. It is equally the case that war opponents do not appreciate the willingness and choice of these young men and women to accept this sacrifice.

Ask "The Troops."

Has anyone done so?

Do these men and women want us, here in the Homeland, to endorse and praise their actions and efforts or to organize to bring them home?

Ask "The Troops."

Has anyone done so?


So, finn, someone did ask them (and it wasn't you).

As revel noted, 72% say "out this year" with one of four saying "out now".

But the really important statistic here is this one:
Quote:
Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam's role in 9/11
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