A life without spirituality.

Frank Apisa wrote:

real life wrote:
Eorl wrote:
real life wrote:

Yes, they have made themselves into a god. Right and wrong are determined only by what they want to have or to do at any given moment.

Are you suggesting you do not do this?

I don't need to suggest it.

Right and wrong are not subjective concepts, determined by your whim or mine.

Says who???

Your god??

Santa???

"The Bible tells me so".

I did not write the book but it's message stands often in contradiction to your farsighted views Frank.

You quote the perplexity and miss the value of the book.

You magnify the literality and miss the spirituality.

You have sought the evil instead of the holy when it is the holy that puts the evil into perspective.

You use literal interpretations when literal interpretations mean nothing if they rest on a weak foundation of error.

You use a western mind to try to understand eastern thought.

Until you address these matters, the truths will be veiled and obscured from you.

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That's bullshit even by your low standards, Rex . . . how the hell can you claim that the Bobble is "eastern thought" . . .

You really gotta lay off the hard drugs, Rex . . .

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Setanta wrote:

That's bullshit even by your low standards, Rex . . . how the hell can you claim that the Bobble is "eastern thought" . . .

You really gotta lay off the hard drugs, Rex . . .

Nothing my doctor doesn't prescribe here. Smile

In answer to your question.

Western culture is devoid of "spiritual" ritual.

In the east if you were to say I am going to sell some cattle, in the very language it did not just mean that you were going to sell the cattle...

In the western "mind" we would think well, they took the cattle down to the market and sold them.

But no, in the east in just saying, I am going to sell my cattle. That one statement had several specifically cultural understood messages woven within.

It meant they were going to first go out and bless the animals and offer the best to God. Then they would go through several "spiritual" rituals and only after this worship they would then sell the cattle.

Almost every thing that was said WITHIN THE LANGUAGE of the eastern cultures involved some sort of ritual the was knitted into the fabric of their collective understandings.

In the west when we sell cattle we just sell cattle. And the same is with the rest of our language and culture. God is not part of the english language. This in itself is a form of liberty that has resulted from the Bible Epistles.

Thus, when one looks at the Bible (an eastern book) with a western mind they miss the spiritual meaning because it is not familiar to them. It takes an active comparative aggressive mind that is always thinking spiritually to "see"...

Set I don't know if I explained this that well.

I think maybe you could actually give some better examples of how eastern culture/language differ from our western english.

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RexRed wrote:

[
"The Bible tells me so".

I did not write the book but it's message stands often in contradiction to your farsighted views Frank.

You quote the perplexity and miss the value of the book.

You magnify the literality and miss the spirituality.

You have sought the evil instead of the holy when it is the holy that puts the evil into perspective.

You use literal interpretations when literal interpretations mean nothing if they rest on a weak foundation of error.

You use a western mind to try to understand eastern thought.

Until you address these matters, the truths will be veiled and obscured from you.

You wouldn't recognize "truth", Rex, if it fell on you.

Until you conquer your fear of the barbaric monster you think is god...the truths will remain veiled and obscure to you.

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Its true rex. Big God did lighten up considerably in the New Testament. Lewis Black explained that he probably was taking anger management courses. when the kid was born.

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farmerman wrote:

Its true rex. Big God did lighten up considerably in the New Testament. Lewis Black explained that he probably was taking anger management courses. when the kid was born.

That Lewis Black routine (I saw it on HBO) had some good stuff in it. Smile

He's pretty funny.

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I liked his line where he said that "the reason that Christians dont get it (when trying to interpret the Old Testament) was that they fail to recognize that one thing the Jews were good at ,... was Bullshit.

THAT Came from trying to keep them occupied WHILE they were living in the desert without any Air Conditioning

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Until you conquer your fear of the barbaric monster you think is god...the truths will remain veiled and obscure to you.

Frank, why do you think Rex is motivated primarily by fear? In my opinion Rex's posts demonstrate confusion bordering on insanity, but they don't seem to revolve around fear of reprisal in any form. Rex seems to be lured more by his perceptions of grandure in the idea, rather than fear. (Granted the image of God presented in the bible pales in comparison to the reality around us, but, I digress...)

Christianity uses both the stick and the carrot to invade the mind. Why do you seem to focus on, and object to, the "stick" aspect of its method? Do you find that more offensive than the hollow lure of fatherly love and eternal pleasures?

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While were dumping on Frank. I think that Frank misses the point in Deuteronomy. Its the last of the "big 5' and Moses is exhorting his people to keep the covenant "or else" HE IS making up the stories (like some nun in school) Its Moses being quoted .
Remember , the Jews (not to belabor Lewis Black so much) do a better job of interpreting "their book". Its not a book to randomly "cherry pick" some gruesome examples , its a total lesson plan for the Children of Israel. It ends Moses "input" of the Torah. God begins to mellow after the Pentateuch.

You need to take a more forensic stab at the Bible, especially the OT.

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Eorl wrote:

real life wrote:
Eorl wrote:
real life wrote:

Yes, they have made themselves into a god. Right and wrong are determined only by what they want to have or to do at any given moment.

Are you suggesting you do not do this?

I don't need to suggest it.

Right and wrong are not subjective concepts, determined by your whim or mine.

A) That is a subjective opinion and
B) You make the decision to do what you think is right regardless of standards (objective or otherwise)

Which leads me to ask the age old question; when you or I help a little lady across the street, which of us is the better person? You...for whom it is expected and in turn you expect reward, or me.....who expects nothing and does it just because I want to?

Your opinion (that my opinion was subjective) is subjective also, by your own standard. So what recommends your subjective opinion more than mine? Not a thing.

Your position is a self defeating one.

------------------------------------------

I'll wager there are probably some things that you consider to be always wrong and you probably would insist that society (the rest of us) should penalize these things (we should think they are wrong also).

Since you hold to some moral positions that you would deem to be universal , your argument for subjective morality fails.

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rosborne979 wrote:

real life wrote:
Eorl wrote:
real life wrote:

Yes, they have made themselves into a god. Right and wrong are determined only by what they want to have or to do at any given moment.

Are you suggesting you do not do this?

I don't need to suggest it.

Right and wrong are not subjective concepts, determined by your whim or mine.

Of course they are.

If not, then who or what do you think determines right and wrong?

I doubt that you believe this in practice.

Do you consider rape to be wrong?

Should society punish rape, or is this just your subjective opinion?

If you hold that this should be a universally upheld moral position, then your argument for subjective morality rings rather hollow.

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That quote within quote business is kind of mind wringing...

real life.

Just because all the subjects maintain one moral notion, (for instance that rape is wrong), that does not make it an objective fact, merely a very common subjective idea.
And this common ground is what we build societies on. No absolute objectivity anywhere, just what the subjects agree on.

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Rape has long been considered an acceptable tactic to spread one's own "race" while exterminating the "other." It has long been common for a conquering tribe to kill all the children, and then rape all the women--the idea being to make the "other" into degraded (often slave) versions of the tribe. This has been seen most recently when the Serbs set up rape camps in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Adolescent Bosnian girls (sometimes adult females, but more rarely) would be imprisoned in camps in which Serb paramilitaries could rape them while "on leave." Once they were pregnant and beginning to show, they would be kept until they were considered too far advanced for an abortion, and then released--shoved out the main gate, without further "consideration."

One of the glaring hypocricies of the moralists are the speed with which they abandon their own codes when dealing with the "other," the tribal or racial enemy.

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Hmm.. I'll file that information under "things I didn't want to know".

Quote:

One of the glaring hypocricies of the moralists are the speed with which they abandon their own codes when dealing with the "other," the tribal or racial enemy.

Isn't that a clear indication that these codes are nothing but hot air and pefume?

Same as in friendship. If you're only loial when it's easy, and not when it takes some effort, you are not a true friend.

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rosborne979 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Until you conquer your fear of the barbaric monster you think is god...the truths will remain veiled and obscure to you.

Frank, why do you think Rex is motivated primarily by fear?

For the same reasons that cause me to guess that an animal floating on a pond saying quack, quack, quack...is a duck.

I'm listening to his music...you are listening to his lyrics.

They don't match.

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real life wrote:

[I doubt that you believe this in practice.

Do you consider rape to be wrong?

Should society punish rape, or is this just your subjective opinion?

If you hold that this should be a universally upheld moral position, then your argument for subjective morality rings rather hollow.

How on earth can anyone who thinks the Bible contains any truths at all...

...consider rape to be a universally upheld immoral position...

...when the god of the Bible makes provision for it????

What deluded folk these theists be.

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farmerman wrote:

While were dumping on Frank. I think that Frank misses the point in Deuteronomy. Its the last of the "big 5' and Moses is exhorting his people to keep the covenant "or else" HE IS making up the stories (like some nun in school) Its Moses being quoted .

Not a good dodge.

He is supposedly quoting the god.

If you cannot trust Moses' word...what use is the Bible at all?

Quote:

Remember , the Jews (not to belabor Lewis Black so much) do a better job of interpreting "their book".

The Jews...early on...came to realize that the god they worshipped was a murderous barbarian. They grew extremely adept at rationalizing the god's actions and proclamations.

They still do a good job of it.

Quote:

Its not a book to randomly "cherry pick" some gruesome examples , its a total lesson plan for the Children of Israel. It ends Moses "input" of the Torah. God begins to mellow after the Pentateuch.

He does like hell.

What happens after the Pentateuch is that the Jews, like the Christians of today...started to talk about how loving and kind and forgiving the god was.

They were terrified of the god...and for good reasons.

But because the book contains 200 pages of the god doing and saying some of the most barbaric things ever put in the mouth of any god...and then there is a 1000 pages of people kissing the god's ass...

...don't for a second think the god mellowed.

Quote:

You need to take a more forensic stab at the Bible, especially the OT.

You need to be more realistic.

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real life wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
real life wrote:
Eorl wrote:
real life wrote:

Yes, they have made themselves into a god. Right and wrong are determined only by what they want to have or to do at any given moment.

Are you suggesting you do not do this?

I don't need to suggest it.

Right and wrong are not subjective concepts, determined by your whim or mine.

Of course they are.

If not, then who or what do you think determines right and wrong?

I doubt that you believe this in practice.

Do you consider rape to be wrong?

Should society punish rape, or is this just your subjective opinion?

If you hold that this should be a universally upheld moral position, then your argument for subjective morality rings rather hollow.

Your examples are limited to the world of people. This is not a universal quality, it's a quality of humanity, one which varies from culture to culture. Do you think there were never any cultures in which certain forms of rape were never accepted?

You cannot make a blanket statement about the universality of right and wrong, and then defend your case by asking me specifically how I feel about something. That's dumb.

Right and wrong are judgements that people make about things. The concepts of Right and Wrong simply do not exist without people to create them.

For millions of years animals on this planet stalked each other, killed each other and ate each other, all before humans had evolved. But never once during all that natural carnage did anything occur which was morally Right or Wrong. Right and Wrong, as we use the concepts did not exist.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

rosborne979 wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Until you conquer your fear of the barbaric monster you think is god...the truths will remain veiled and obscure to you.

Frank, why do you think Rex is motivated primarily by fear?

For the same reasons that cause me to guess that an animal floating on a pond saying quack, quack, quack...is a duck.

I'm listening to his music...you are listening to his lyrics.

They don't match.

Ok Frank, if you say so. But I'm pretty good at hearing the music amidst the lyrics, and I think some of that music you're hearing is coming from you, not Rex.

Quack quack Wink

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Frank Apisa wrote:

farmerman wrote:
While were dumping on Frank. I think that Frank misses the point in Deuteronomy. Its the last of the "big 5' and Moses is exhorting his people to keep the covenant "or else" HE IS making up the stories (like some nun in school) Its Moses being quoted .

Not a good dodge.

He is supposedly quoting the god.

If you cannot trust Moses' word...what use is the Bible at all?

Quote:

As an agnostic, which rumor has it you are, when you read something like that in the bible, do you read it as though there really *is* a god, or as though all you're reading are the *beliefs* of the people of that time?

Have you ruled out the viability of the God "of the bible" existing, or are you agnostic about that possibility as well?

I'm trying to understand if a true agnostic retains some tiny shred of fear of the possibility of the existance of a barbaric god.

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A life without spirituality.

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