A life without spirituality.

thank you fresco. This is interesting stuff.

Yes indeed. It's a shame that Frank deprives himself of such fascinating possibilities by derograting them as mere "guesses." That is the key concept in his agnostic ideology. He seems to contrast all intuitions, theories, perspectives to some kind of absolute certainty (which I do not think he explicitly promotes). Einstein was just guessing? Of course his thought experiments were, at first, short of confirmed, but "just guesses"? What could that really mean?
To me "guessing" suggests an eeny, meeny miney mo, kind of process in an effort to choose between two opposing possibilities.
We (Fresco and I) are not choosing between dualism vs. non-dualism; we are attempting to illuminate their differences. Ultimate reality, in my perspective, is neither; it's beyond that as well as all distinctions. Similarly, the old pseudo puzzle regarding free-will and determinism rests on a false assumption of the nature of an ego that is free or "causes" acts--like egos--as agents of emerging effects.
We cannot--or at least I cannot--function very well without the working assumption of causation (I THINK in terms of causes, but I do not SEE them) and an assumption of being a "self" that initiates actions. Both are , as I see them, necessary illusions, but illusions nevertheless.
The naive realism of our cultures are useful up to a point--an important: we could not live without them. But they are no basis for philosophical conclusions.

I disagree JL. Philosophy is in my eyes an attempt by man to find answers to some of life's more urgent and hard to answer questions.
You are in essence saying philosophy should be limited to such arguments as can be reasonably founded and explained by our current level of scientific knowledge.
But why should it be so? And what does that mean for the works of philosophers like Aristotle, Tomas of Aquinas, Augustine of Hippo, Plato, etc. All people who have written famous books without having a concept of the scientific way of how the world works (Granted, Aristotle had one, but it was flawed from our POV).

I disagree JL. Philosophy is in my eyes an attempt by man to find answers to some of life's more urgent and hard to answer questions.
You are in essence saying philosophy should be limited to such arguments as can be reasonably founded and explained by our current level of scientific knowledge.
But why should it be so? And what does that mean for the works of philosophers like Aristotle, Tomas of Aquinas, Augustine of Hippo, Plato, etc. All people who have written famous books without having a concept of the scientific way of how the world works (Granted, Aristotle had one, but it was flawed from our POV).

I have no problem with guessing, JL. I just think that people who offer their guesses as facts are off base.

If you want to guess that the REALITY is non-dualistic...or if someone else wants to guess the REALITY has a God as an essential...or if someone else wants to guess the REALITY contains no gods...

...who really cares.

And if you good folks provide laughs by pretending the guesses are more than guesses...so much the better. Everyone on the planet is better off with a bit more laughing.

Stop kidding yourself that you are not choosing.

And stop deluding yourself that I am depriving myself of fascinating possibilities by calling your guesses..."guesses."

I am not.

najmelliw

It may be the case that traditional philosophy dealt with pseudo-problems with inferior analysis devices such as binary logic. You don't have to go into the realms of science to find philosophers such as Wittgenstein who thought as much, with his adage "much of philosophy is what happens when language goes on holiday".

Naj, I apologize for not editing my last post. It was very badly expressed. Nevertheless, your characterization of my position could not be farther from my intended meaning. I do not give Science as much credit as you suggest. The "scientific method" is the most efficient way to conjure useful information, but I've said many times that knowledge did not begin with the scientific method--any more than the production of material goods began with the Industrial Revolution.

JLNobody wrote:


I've sometimes wondered what is the reason for this. Is it the mindset of the modern human being, from wich this method springs, that causes it, or is it the truth of the actual method? Maybe the scientific method only seems to be the most efficient, because it is the angle "in fashion".
Not neccesarily that it tells us the absolute truth, but rather that it tells us the things we want to know about it. The things we deem important in our modern mindset.
After all, for each answer there was a question phrased closely towards it. It's how science works. We imagine an answer, and then proceed to test it's validity. Of course, the better the imagination; if it's so good that we can call it theoretical prediction, it will be a more efficient method. But did it really tell us something we didn't already know?

For all we know the ancient hinu writings that explain the universe is entirely acurate. Only, words change their meanings over thousands of years, and the mind of the modern man is not the mind of the ancient hindu.
We know little or nothing of the mental landscape of those times, of how man defined his realit, so when we read today what was written then, the texts may be so out of context that they just don't make sense.

I had thought about starting a new thread, but it doesn't really merit it, and this thread has taken a turn in the direction of which i was thinking anyway. The titular topic is a life without spirituality. All too often, Snood has used this thread as an opportunity to sneer at those who do not share his views--how sad for him. It is possible to live a life without spirituality, but it is not possible to live in society without ever encountering the artifacts of other people's religion. But that shouldn't be a problem. There is a song, Love is the Seventh Wave, which has been recorded by numerous individuals and groups, and with which The Police enjoyed the greatest success:

In the empire of the senses
You're the queen of all you survey
All the cities, all the nation
Everything that falls your way, I say
There is a deeper world than this that you don't understand
There is a deeper world that this tugging at your hand

Every ripple on the ocean
Every leaf on every tree
Every sand dune in the desert
Every power we never see
There is a deeper wave than this, swelling in the world
There is a deeper wave than this, listen to me girl

Feel it rising in the cities
Feel it sweeping overland
Over borders, over frontiers
Nothing will its power withstand, I say
There is no deeper wave than this rising in the world
There is no deeper wave than this listen to me girl

All the bloodshed, all the anger
All the weapons, all the greed
All the armies, all the missiles
All the symbols of that fear, I say
There is a deeper wave than this rising in the world
There is a deeper wave than this, listen to me girl

At the still point of destruction
At the centre of the fury
All the angels, all the devils
All around us, can't you see?
There is a deeper wave than this rising in the land
There is a deeper wave than this nothing will withstand

I say love is the seventh wave
I say love is the seventh wave
I say love is the seventh wave
I say love is the seventh wave
I say love is the seventh wave
I say love is the seventh wave

I really like that song. I don't have to practice of believe in Santaria, or be a Rastafarian, or an Animist to enjoy it, and i can enjoy it without subscribing to any religious belief set. I love what people call classical music. At Christmas time, radio stations which play that type of music often play Von Williams' Variation on the Theme of Greensleeves, because that "tune" also happens to be used for the seasonal song What Child is This? I can enjoy the music without subscribing to the mumbo-jumbo. I also enjoy this:

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

--by John Lennon. Someone of religious conviction could enjoy that song without abandoning their creed.

There is a no deeper wave than this, rising in the world--enjoy it. You don't need a license to enjoy the variety of human expression, and you don't have to sign up for the newsletter.

I had thought about starting a new thread, but it doesn't really merit it, and this thread has taken a turn in the direction of which i was thinking anyway. The titular topic is a life without spirituality. All too often, Snood has used this thread as an opportunity to sneer at those who do not share his views--how sad for him. It is possible to live a life without spirituality, but it is not possible to live in society without ever encountering the artifacts of other people's religion. But that shouldn't be a problem. There is a song, Love is the Seventh Wave, which has been recorded by numerous individuals and groups, and with which The Police enjoyed the greatest success:

In the empire of the senses
You're the queen of all you survey
All the cities, all the nation
Everything that falls your way, I say
There is a deeper world than this that you don't understand
There is a deeper world that this tugging at your hand

Every ripple on the ocean
Every leaf on every tree
Every sand dune in the desert
Every power we never see
There is a deeper wave than this, swelling in the world
There is a deeper wave than this, listen to me girl

Feel it rising in the cities
Feel it sweeping overland
Over borders, over frontiers
Nothing will its power withstand, I say
There is no deeper wave than this rising in the world
There is no deeper wave than this listen to me girl

All the bloodshed, all the anger
All the weapons, all the greed
All the armies, all the missiles
All the symbols of that fear, I say
There is a deeper wave than this rising in the world
There is a deeper wave than this, listen to me girl

At the still point of destruction
At the centre of the fury
All the angels, all the devils
All around us, can't you see?
There is a deeper wave than this rising in the land
There is a deeper wave than this nothing will withstand

I say love is the seventh wave
I say love is the seventh wave
I say love is the seventh wave
I say love is the seventh wave
I say love is the seventh wave
I say love is the seventh wave

I really like that song. I don't have to practice or believe in Santaria, or be a Rastafarian, or an Animist to enjoy it, and i can enjoy it without subscribing to any religious belief set. I love what people call classical music. At Christmas time, radio stations which play that type of music often play Von Williams' Variation on the Theme of Greensleeves, because that "tune" also happens to be used for the seasonal song What Child is This? I can enjoy the music without subscribing to the mumbo-jumbo. I also enjoy this:

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

--by John Lennon. Someone of religious conviction could enjoy that song without abandoning their creed.

There is a no deeper wave than this, rising in the world--enjoy it. You don't need a license to enjoy the variety of human expression, and you don't have to sign up for the newsletter.

show me where I sneered on this thread, Setanta.

Thanks for handling the light work for me, Lash . . . i was working on the busted toilet tank, and couldn't get back for a while . . .

All I said to JL was that he was making his opinion sound like universally accepted truth. I don't believe JL took deep offense to the statement - at least he didn't express any.You and Lash seem determined to scour the thread for anything negative you can use.

Setanta, you hijacked this thread for several pages with a petty back-and-forth with Frank Apisa, so it just rings hollow as hell for you to be trying to come off high and mighty about who's putting down someone else's views.

Actually, the exchange between you and I has been minimal - you called something "poofery", and I said it wasn't necessary for you to use that tone. That's all we got to say to each other before you launched off into your "quien es mas macho" with Apisa. You derailed the thread (although you will blame it all on apisa), now after it starts back again, it seems you can't wait to start up another sh*tty contest.

You couldn't just post about what you hold as important, or that moves you profoundly... (the lyrics- which by the way are beautiful) - that wouldn't do. You could have just posted your lyrics and expressed how those thoughts connected with you in a way that doesn't have to be spiritual or religious - and you could do that without indulging your prodigious petty mean streak. Or maybe you just can't.

Lash has posted to this thread -and indeed to any thread I have started lately- solely to express her disagreement with anything I say. I think its obvious she doesn't like me much. I think from what I can see of her here, I really couldn't care less what she likes, but I sure wish she wouldn't waste so much of everyone's time expressing that. Say something about life without spirituality, Lash - I dare you.

I don't want to give either of you the satisfaction of getting me engaged in personal bullcrap, but you both have attacked me on this thread, and you - neither of you- are so important or powerful that anybody has to take that lying down.

Now - I started this thread in answer to a request from someone who thought that I could explore some things a little more broadly than in another thread about A life without religion. I think there have been some excellent, thought-provoking posts here. I've been very impressed at some of the real attempts at self-examination and expression. I am still interested in sharing some exchange of thoughts with those who don't find that spirituality (and I know that term wasn't well defined by me to begin - thanks to those who have tried to fill in the blanks) holds any meaning in their lives.

That's sort of crazy, snood. I just disagree with most everything you say, and I respond to your questions and challenges. If it helps, I used to feel the same way you do, and I said some of the same things you're saying, and I really thought there were a few people who were purposefully disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreeing with me. Truth is--they just disagreed with me, and had a right to say so.

If you don't want the answers, don't ask the questions.

Nobody's out to get you.

Three points:
(1) Cryacuz, by the efficiency of the scientific method, I refer to both its strength and weakness. The Method works very well but only for the testing of a limited range of questions about the physical world; as you suggest it cannot help us (even inefficiently) with philosophical issues.

(2) Lash, what a trouble maker you can be. Why did you tell Snood that I am out to get him?

(3) I do not consider Snood's reservation about my attitude to have been motivated by aggression. If I was a bit offended it was only because I try very hard to conceal my arrogance from you'all.

Three points:
(1) Cryacuz, by the efficiency of the scientific method, I refer to both its strength and weakness. The Method works very well but only for the testing of a limited range of questions about the physical world; as you suggest it cannot help us (even inefficiently) with philosophical issues.

(2) Lash, what a trouble maker you can be. Why did you tell Snood that I am out to get him?

(3) I do not consider Snood's reservation about my attitude to have been motivated by aggression. If I was a bit offended it was only because I try very hard to conceal my arrogance from you'all (except from Frank perhaps).

You've been concealing a rapier wit all this time!!!

Demerits for the panther!!!! Someone should give him a good lashing.

Like this tongue lashing?