1
   

Civilians Death Rate in Iraq Less Than in Washington, DC

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Aug, 2006 08:17 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Not to interrupt your fine argument,

but I can't believe this asinine thread is still going on.

And here I am contributing to it.

Cycloptichorn


Well, I think some of these statistics are not asinine. Not having been to Iraq, as few Americans have, yet we all form opinions based in no small part on mere snippets of news as to how dangerous the mission is there, or how attainable our goals are there. If we could understand the situation in a context that we can relate to, perhaps we could be more realistic about the situation in Iraq.

People sit around watching war movies, shoot-em-ups, etc. every day, then watch a minute or two of sensational news showing the latest car bombing in Iraq, I think people acquire the mental image that the situation there is totally hopeless and the mission is impossible. Soldiers that return from Iraq do not have the same mental picture or opinion as we do here. A good balanced view of the situation there is sorely lacking. This opinion tracks with my own experience in Vietnam. If some of you have been in a war zone, I think you would agree with me.

So label the statistical exercises asinine, but I do not agree. Beyond the fact I kind of like to play with statistics, I think they can be instructive, or at least a tool to help us understand things a bit better.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Aug, 2006 01:43 am
Since nobody has ever said the servicemen and Guardsmen stationed stateside or in Europe were in a dangerous situation, I see no reason to include the entire US armed forces in the statistics about how dangerous it is to be in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Aug, 2006 06:24 am
And of course okie doesn't include any of the servicemen killed outside Iraq in his figures. Some of those killed in auto accidents were servicemen. Servicemen die in training accidents. You might as well only count those traffic deaths killed while sitting in a Mazda Miata if you want to make a better comparison okie.

Okie also ignores the fact that servicemen in Iraq are not on duty the entire time. If we only count the time spent in cars then we should only count the time spent on duty in Iraq. Or perhaps we should restrict it to the time they are in actual combat in Iraq.

Your outlandish attempts to show that Iraq isn't dangerous are really quite humorous okie.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Aug, 2006 09:06 am
And the casualty count-lost limbs and the like-is several times the death toll itself.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Aug, 2006 10:44 am
Just for kicks, here's a look at an actual legitimate, objective statistical analysis of the matter here at discussion.

Quote:
http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/ssi/globalnav/wpdotcom_190x30.gif

Service in Iraq: Just How Risky?

By Samuel H. Preston and Emily Buzzell
Saturday, August 26, 2006; A21



The consequences of Operation Iraqi Freedom for U.S. forces are being documented by the Defense Department with an exceptional degree of openness and transparency. Its daily and cumulative counts of deaths receive a great deal of publicity. But deaths alone don't indicate the risk for an individual. For this purpose, the number of deaths must be compared with the number of individuals exposed to the risk of death. The Defense Department has supplied us with appropriate data on exposure, and we take advantage of it to provide the first profile of military mortality in Iraq.

Between March 21, 2003, when the first military death was recorded in Iraq, and March 31, 2006, there were 2,321 deaths among American troops in Iraq. Seventy-nine percent were a result of action by hostile forces. Troops spent a total of 592,002 "person-years" in Iraq during this period. The ratio of deaths to person-years, .00392, or 3.92 deaths per 1,000 person-years, is the death rate of military personnel in Iraq.

How does this rate compare with that in other groups? One meaningful comparison is to the civilian population of the United States. That rate was 8.42 per 1,000 in 2003, more than twice that for military personnel in Iraq.

The comparison is imperfect, of course, because a much higher fraction of the American population is elderly and subject to higher death rates from degenerative diseases. The death rate for U.S. men ages 18 to 39 in 2003 was 1.53 per 1,000 -- 39 percent of that of troops in Iraq. But one can also find something equivalent to combat conditions on home soil. The death rate for African American men ages 20 to 34 in Philadelphia was 4.37 per 1,000 in 2002, 11 percent higher than among troops in Iraq. Slightly more than half the Philadelphia deaths were homicides.


The death rate of American troops in Vietnam was 5.6 times that observed in Iraq. Part of the reduction in the death rate is attributable to improvements in military medicine and such things as the use of body armor. These have reduced the ratio of deaths to wounds from 24 percent in Vietnam to 13 percent in Iraq. Some other factors to be considered:

Branch of service: Marines are paying the highest toll in Iraq. Their death rate is more than double that of the Army, 10 times higher than that of the Navy and 20 times higher than for the Air Force. In fact, those in the Navy and Air Force have substantially lower death rates than civilian men ages 20 to 34.

Among the Marines, there is in effect no difference in the mortality risks for members on active duty and those in the reserve. In the Army, on the other hand, reservists have 33 percent of the death rate of those in active service because they are not assigned to combat positions. Members of the Army National Guard are intermediate in assignments and in mortality.

Rank: In both the Army and the Marines, enlisted personnel have 40 percent higher mortality than officers. The excess mortality of enlisted soldiers is diminished by the high mortality of the lowest-ranking officers, lieutenants, who are typically the leaders of combat patrols. Lieutenants have the highest mortality of any rank in the Army, 19 percent higher than all Army troops combined. Marine Corps lieutenants have 11 percent higher mortality than all Marines. But the single highest-mortality group in any service consists of lance corporals in the Marines, whose death risk is 3.3 times that of all troops in Iraq.

Age, sex , race and ethnicity: In contrast to the civilian population, mortality rates decline precipitously with age. Troops ages 17 to 19 have a death risk 4.6 times that of those 50 and older. Differences in rank by age undoubtedly contribute to this pattern, and so do differences in branch of service. Sixty-five percent of Marine deployments to Iraq were of those age 24 or younger, compared with only 39 percent of Army deployments. Women are not assigned to combat specialties in Iraq, although they do see enemy fire; their death rate is 18 percent that of men.

Identifying racial and ethnic differences in mortality is not straightforward because the Defense Department uses a different classification system for deaths than for deployments. Nevertheless, all attempts we have made to reconcile the two systems reach the same conclusion: Hispanics have a death risk about 20 percent higher than non-Hispanics, and blacks have a death risk about 30 to 40 percent lower than that of non-blacks. That low death rate appears to result from an overrepresentation of blacks in low-risk categories: For example, 19 percent of blacks in Iraq are women, compared with 9 percent of non-blacks, while 7 percent of blacks in Iraq are Marines, compared with 13 percent of non-blacks.

Other casualties: The number of wounded in Iraq through March 31, 2006, was 7.5 times the number of dead; the rate at which wounds are incurred was one per 33 troops per year. We do not have the same information about the characteristics of those wounded as we have about those killed. But given the overwhelming importance of hostile encounters in both wounds and deaths, it is likely that variations in the risk of being wounded are quite similar to those presented here.

Samuel H. Preston is the Frederick J. Warren professor of demography at the University of Pennsylvania. Emily Buzzell is a student in the Health and Societies Program at Penn.

© 2006 The Washington Post Company
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 10:05 am
That's nice Timber except once again it is a false use of statistics.

Note that the stats for Philedelphia don't use "person years". They appear to use the number of deaths in Philly and then use the population of Philly. Is one to assume that no young blacks from outside Philly spent any time in Philly in 2003 nor was anyone from outside Philly killed there? A rather preposterous assumption don't you think?

Then they use a particular subset of stats to try to make a comparison. Is everyone in the military a young black male? Shouldn't we compare apples to apples? Would it be OK to remove the support personnel from the stats for military deaths in Iraq since they aren't in as much danger as the combat troops? Why do we only consider less then half of the 20-34 age group in Philly? Is that really a fair comparison? We might as well restrict the group to those that were killed. That way we could compare a 100% mortality rate to the rate in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
CerealKiller
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 12:39 pm
Iraq is going swimmingly.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 01:17 pm
Yup, walking the streets of Baghdad is safer than walking the streets of Philly.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 01:28 pm
parados wrote:
That's nice Timber except once again it is a false use of statistics.

Note that the stats for Philedelphia don't use "person years". They appear to use the number of deaths in Philly and then use the population of Philly. Is one to assume that no young blacks from outside Philly spent any time in Philly in 2003 nor was anyone from outside Philly killed there? A rather preposterous assumption don't you think?

Then they use a particular subset of stats to try to make a comparison. Is everyone in the military a young black male? Shouldn't we compare apples to apples? Would it be OK to remove the support personnel from the stats for military deaths in Iraq since they aren't in as much danger as the combat troops? Why do we only consider less then half of the 20-34 age group in Philly? Is that really a fair comparison? We might as well restrict the group to those that were killed. That way we could compare a 100% mortality rate to the rate in Iraq.


Parados, I submit that your objection is spurious; the article explicitly establishes "person years" as the criterion of comparison, and specifically cites individually identified years and clearly defined demographics as its points of comparison (in the case of the Philadelphia example you siezed on, for instance, the data cited refer to, and only to, deaths-per-thousand among the single demograpic comprised of African American males aged 20 - 34 for the single year 2002).


Now, nobody contends that duty in Iraq is "safe"; any such notion would be absurd on its face - military duty by its nature, war or no war, entails risks and hazards uncharacteristic of civilian life. Toss in armed hostilities, and things get only less "safe". All that aside, even with active conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq the annual-rate-of-death-per-thousand for active-duty US Military personnel, all causes, for the year 2004 (the most recent year for which full figures are available), while higher than the average for the previous 20 years, was statistically insignificantly different from the rate recorded for the years 1980 through 1983, a time period over which it need not be mentioned that our nation was not at war.

Interesting, though, due to the smaller size of today's military compared to that of a couple decades ago, not directly pertinent, is that overall deaths of active duty US Military personnel for the year 2004 were fewer than for any year over the period from 1980 through 1987.

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/3192/mildeathchartslv6.jpg

Data: US Dept of Defense: Defense Manpower Data Center - Office of the Actuary
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 01:47 pm
parados wrote:
Note that the stats for Philedelphia don't use "person years". They appear to use the number of deaths in Philly and then use the population of Philly. [...]Is one to assume that no young blacks from outside Philly spent any time in Philly in 2003 nor was anyone from outside Philly killed there? A rather preposterous assumption don't you think?

Not really, for at least two reasons (1) Though I don't have the numbers, I would expect there are much fewer visitors than residents in Philadelphia at any given point in time. The distortion from counting the visitors should be negligible. (2) In dividing deaths in Philadelphia by the city's resident population, the authors count visitors who die in Philadelphia, but not Philadelphians who die while visiting other places. To a first approximation, these two mistakes should cancel each other out.

parados wrote:
Shouldn't we compare apples to apples?

We should -- and that's exactly what the authors do before they make their point about Philadelphia. Timber's source seems fair to me.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 07:40 pm
Thomas wrote:
parados wrote:
Note that the stats for Philedelphia don't use "person years". They appear to use the number of deaths in Philly and then use the population of Philly. [...]Is one to assume that no young blacks from outside Philly spent any time in Philly in 2003 nor was anyone from outside Philly killed there? A rather preposterous assumption don't you think?

Not really, for at least two reasons (1) Though I don't have the numbers, I would expect there are much fewer visitors than residents in Philadelphia at any given point in time. The distortion from counting the visitors should be negligible. (2) In dividing deaths in Philadelphia by the city's resident population, the authors count visitors who die in Philadelphia, but not Philadelphians who die while visiting other places. To a first approximation, these two mistakes should cancel each other out.

parados wrote:
Shouldn't we compare apples to apples?

We should -- and that's exactly what the authors do before they make their point about Philadelphia. Timber's source seems fair to me.


One small problem there Thomas.
http://www.gophila.com/Go/PressRoom/factsheets/Visitor_Facts_for_Philadelphia_Factsheet.aspx
25.5 million person trips to Philly and surrounding area. Lets assume only half of those are to Philly and they last only a day. 35,000 more person years on top of the population with an unlikely scenario. Lets be MORE realistic. 3/4 of those went to Philly and they spent 2 days there. Most conferences last 3-5 days. (38% of the downtown visits) Most vacations last 5-7 days. But for the sake of argument we will still keep it low. We have now added 100,000 more person years to the population that were not considered. Not quite 7% but still a pretty substantial amount when the claim is it is 11% higher.


Now the other thing not included are those people that live in the suburbs and work in the city, a not so small number that would spend on average 10 hours a day in the city. Philadelphia is about 1.5 million but the surrounding area is 3.8 million. I have no way to figure that number. I doubt the authors took it into account either.

Using the population alone does NOT give you person years for a major US city. The person years could be 20-50% higher depending on the city.
The ONLY way to get a number of African Americans age 20-34 is from the US census. The census doesn't count person years.

As for you claim that we can wipe out the visitors because of those that leave Philly. That again is a false argument since many of those in Iraq go on leave for a week or two during their deployment. There is no rotation in to cover them at that time. If every soldier in Iraq gets one week leave out of country that affects the "person years" by almost 2% if the authors only used the deployment numbers without adjustment.

A couple of % here and a few more there and pretty soon we are talking some pretty substantial numbers. There is no reasonable way to compare Philly to Iraq. The authors of this study didn't do it. They used selective data.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 07:49 pm
A very interesting take, parados. Entertainingy so.

I will grant, however, in absolute terms no truly meaningful comparison may be made. The fact remains, however, that a member of today's US Military faces by no means anything like an anomalous death rate, even being at less risk of death, all causes considered, than has been the case during recent historical times not featuring an ongoing war.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 08:24 pm
Timberlandko, thanks for the instructive article. I think the leftist, liberal element is bent on convincing the public that the costs of the mission in Iraq is like Vietnam, it is intolerable, the cost is too high, and the mission is impossible. However, it is a documented fact that pessimism and self defeatism are self fulfilling prophecy. It not only demoralizes us, but it encourages the enemy to fight on. It is a documented part of history that the North Vietnamese have admitted to being encouraged to perservere during times when they were tempted to give up, simply because of what they saw in the media. One way to demoralize us is to portray the situation in Iraq as wretched and terrible, and getting worse. The situation is not wonderful, but I would submit that it has never been as bad as portrayed. However, if we continue to lose the war in the media and public opinion, the situation will in fact worsen as the enemy continues to be emboldened to fight on by the public message that they are winning and we are losing. Also, more terrorists will be more likely to join the fight if they see the cause as potentially successful.

I am convinced that if the U.N. would actually abide by their own resolutions, and band together to send a message to terrorists in Iraq and other places, the situation would become vastly improved almost overnight. A very huge part of the war as waged by terrorist organizations is playing the media like a fiddle. And the world media is allowing it to happen, which is aided in no small measure by the liberal media here in the U.S.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 08:30 pm
I never said he did Timber.

But to compare the rate of being in Iraq to a US city is what is ridiculous and continues to be so. There is no real comparison. To claim that a US city is more unsafe for its population than Iraq is for a US soldier shows a real disconnect and an attempt to manipulate facts to make it appear such.

If one wants to do a true statistical comparison then they must take all those things I have pointed out into account. One might as well claim it is much more unsafe for those murdered in the US than it is for a US soldier that isn't killed. 100% death rate for the one group vs a 0% death rate for the other.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 08:56 pm
A couple of small problem with your argument there okie.

The number of US deaths in Iraq went up when the US population supported the war.

The number of terrorist acts have gone up around the world while the US is in Iraq. It seems being in Iraq is not reducing terrorism and one can't expect that staying there would do so nor would we expect some type of increase if we leave.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/26/AR2005042601623.html

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/65462.pdf
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Aug, 2006 09:37 pm
Well, parados, war isn't simple, it isn't pretty, it isn't fun, and it isn't easy. Generally, it may be expected one's enemy will take an active and independent role as well, with focus on achieving his aims and thwarting one's own. In the same vein as your observation that " ... terrorist acts have gone up around the world while the US is in Iraq ... ", one might as well observe that German submarine attacks went up around the world following Pearl Harbor, or that Japanese resistance in the Pacific increased intensity exponentially following the Normandy landings in Europe.

As to what might happen should we "leave" ... we're where we're at now largely because we DID leave - Vietnam, Beirut, Somalia, and because we failed to react with resolve, vigor, and focus following the Iranian takeover of our embassy there, the 1st WTC bombing, the African Embassy bombings and the attack on the USS Cole - and to no small extent a component of the jihadist perception that Western powers might be engaged and defeated stems from the Soviet abandonment of their Afghanistan adventure. Ignoring this war, stepping away from it, will do nothing to hasten its end or to make "us" any "safer". The only way things CAN improve, get "better", "safer", ... is for us to perservere and see this war through to its end with the defeat of the enemy through depriving the enemy of the will, the means, and the capacity to wage war on us. In war, there is only one exit strategy.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Aug, 2006 06:49 am
timberlandko wrote:
Well, parados, war isn't simple, it isn't pretty, it isn't fun, and it isn't easy. Generally, it may be expected one's enemy will take an active and independent role as well, with focus on achieving his aims and thwarting one's own. In the same vein as your observation that " ... terrorist acts have gone up around the world while the US is in Iraq ... ", one might as well observe that German submarine attacks went up around the world following Pearl Harbor, or that Japanese resistance in the Pacific increased intensity exponentially following the Normandy landings in Europe.
okie argued that the terrorists would be emboldened if we leave or if US public opinion goes against the war. A specious argument without facts. It would mean they must be dispirited while we are there but in reality the number of terrorist acts have increased. There is no cause and effect as okie is attempting to claim there is. Which came first? The increase in terrorism or the public opinion about Iraq? I would have to point to the facts that terrorism and attacks in Iraq increased long before US public opinion soured on the Iraq invasion.

Quote:

As to what might happen should we "leave" ... we're where we're at now largely because we DID leave - Vietnam, Beirut, Somalia, and because we failed to react with resolve, vigor, and focus following the Iranian takeover of our embassy there, the 1st WTC bombing, the African Embassy bombings and the attack on the USS Cole - and to no small extent a component of the jihadist perception that Western powers might be engaged and defeated stems from the Soviet abandonment of their Afghanistan adventure. Ignoring this war, stepping away from it, will do nothing to hasten its end or to make "us" any "safer". The only way things CAN improve, get "better", "safer", ... is for us to perservere and see this war through to its end with the defeat of the enemy through depriving the enemy of the will, the means, and the capacity to wage war on us. In war, there is only one exit strategy.
It seems you agree with me then. Being in Iraq doesn't prevent an increase in terrorism. In fact Iraq is a distraction from the war on terrorism since it uses resources that could be better used elsewhere.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Aug, 2006 06:51 am
All this fails to address the fact that it is silly to compare the violent death rate in selected parts of the US to Iraq as a whole. It is and always wil be a false comparison manufactured to support a viewpoint.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Aug, 2006 10:43 am
Timber,

Here's an email received by Glenn Reynold's after his take on the WaPost article, from a serviceman:

Quote:
Among my other duties in Iraq, I was a convoy gunner. I am also a native of inner city Philadelphia who has spent almost all of my life in some of the city's toughest neighborhoods. I can say from direct experience that combat duty in Iraq isn't as easy or as safe as walking down the street in Philadelphia. This is a simple fact that the statistics you've linked to attempt to obfuscate. The statistics don't take into account the fact that the majority of servicemen in Iraq spend their deployments behind rows of T-walls, Hesco barriers, and checkpoints, and that the much smaller number of troops that spend their time outside the wire face far greater danger than young black men walking the streets of Philly. The statistics also ignore the fact that the American military has some of the best trauma care in the world, and that the number of people who live despite grave injuries vastly outnumbers those who die from them. (If I remember correctly, the Army said a little while ago that the number of deaths in Iraq would be four times greater if not for its ability to quickly evacuate casualties to top quality medical facilities.) This means that a lot more soldiers have faced potentially life-threatening injuries than just those who have died. If the proper statistics were referenced (or even available) I'd bet my next paycheck that they would back up the obvious reality: Iraq is a warzone that is vastly more dangerous than even the deadliest sections of Philadelphia.


http://instapundit.com/archives/032203.php

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Aug, 2006 11:30 am
timberlandko wrote:
As to what might happen should we "leave" ... we're where we're at now largely because we DID leave - Vietnam, Beirut, Somalia, and because we failed to react with resolve, vigor, and focus following the Iranian takeover of our embassy there, the 1st WTC bombing, the African Embassy bombings and the attack on the USS Cole - and to no small extent a component of the jihadist perception that Western powers might be engaged and defeated stems from the Soviet abandonment of their Afghanistan adventure.


This is an unwarranted set of ridiculously oversimplified statements about sets of complex events, many of which bear no relationship to one another. For example, there is not only no good reason to attempt to tie the Persians (or at least the Revolutionary Guards) to the first attack on the World Trade Center, the African bombings and the attack on Cole, it is pertinent to point out that the vast majority of Persians--and certainly the Revolutionary Guards to a man--are Twelver Shi'ites, and the al Qaeda organization is a Wahhabi organization. Not only do those boys not get along, they'd as gleefully slaughter one another as take a crack at us.

Parados carefully points out that Okie's thesis is flawed because of a lack of demonstrable cause and effect. You respond to that with a series of unsubstaniated statements about events, many of which are unrelated, for which you have demonstrated no cause and effect--and specifically, by appeal to a vague and undemonstrated argument about "terrorist moral." In the context of this discussion, you have responded to Parados's careful articulated statement about no demonstrated cause and effect being in effect, a "does not" argument--by stating "does too!" loudly, and rather incoherently.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 04/27/2024 at 04:17:12