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Civilians Death Rate in Iraq Less Than in Washington, DC

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 08:51 am
Re: Civilians Death Rate in Iraq Less Than in Washington, DC
Brandon9000 wrote:
Despite media coverage purporting to show that escalating violence in Iraq has the country spiraling out of control, civilian death statistics complied by Rep. Steve King, R-IA, indicate that Iraq actually has a lower civilian violent death rate than Washington, D.C.

It's a fair point to make. I would prefer to see it made by a professional statistician and peer-reviewed by some other statisticians, but the point is fair. I'll go by Mr. King's numbers for purposes of this thread.

On the other hand, Osama BinLaden could make a similar argument about the September 11 attacks. He could point out that the attacks increased America's anual rate of violent death by a mere 10/100,000. If America has caused an acceptable rise in Iraq's death rate, surely Al Quaeda has caused an acceptable rise in America's.

Or alternatively, something is wrong with your argument.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 08:54 am
What amazes me is that Brandon has not concluded that civilian deaths in Washington DC somehow are a by product of the war on terror and a necessary egg that must be broken to make the "Keep America Safe From Terrorists" omelette
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 08:58 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
The estimated number of civilians killed in Iraq during the war, according to Iraqbodycount.org, is 38059. Note that this is the low end estimate. The high end estimate is 42434.

Also note that this number tells you the change in Iraq's rate of violent deaths as a result of the war. It does not include the violent deaths that would have occured without the war. Mr. King compared a city without a war with a country in a war, which is apples to oranges.
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 09:00 am
Re: Civilians Death Rate in Iraq Less Than in Washington, DC
Thomas wrote:
It's a fair point to make. I would prefer to see it made by a professional statistician and peer-reviewed by some other statisticians, but the point is fair. I'll go by Mr. King's numbers for purposes of this thread.

On the other hand, Osama BinLaden could make a similar argument about the September 11 attacks. He could point out that the attacks increased America's anual rate of violent death by a mere 10/100,000. If America has caused an acceptable rise in Iraq's death rate, surely Al Quaeda has caused an acceptable rise in America's.

Or alternatively, something is wrong with your argument.

Or, alternatively, Iraqi lives are worth less than American lives.

Once again, Thomas, you have failed to consider the most plausible explanation.
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xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 09:02 am
bm
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 09:05 am
Re: Civilians Death Rate in Iraq Less Than in Washington, DC
joefromchicago wrote:
Thomas wrote:
It's a fair point to make. I would prefer to see it made by a professional statistician and peer-reviewed by some other statisticians, but the point is fair. I'll go by Mr. King's numbers for purposes of this thread.

On the other hand, Osama BinLaden could make a similar argument about the September 11 attacks. He could point out that the attacks increased America's anual rate of violent death by a mere 10/100,000. If America has caused an acceptable rise in Iraq's death rate, surely Al Quaeda has caused an acceptable rise in America's.

Or alternatively, something is wrong with your argument.

Or, alternatively, Iraqi lives are worth less than American lives.

Once again, Thomas, you have failed to consider the most plausible explanation.

The picture presented by some liberals of civilians being slaughtered left and right in Iraq appears to be false. Now go and change the subject some more.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 09:13 am
Re: Civilians Death Rate in Iraq Less Than in Washington, DC
Brandon9000, describing the subject in the title of his thread, wrote:
Civilians Death Rate in Iraq Less Than in Washington, DC

Brandon9000, describing the subject on page 3 of his thread, wrote:
The picture presented by some liberals of civilians being slaughtered left and right in Iraq appears to be false. Now go and change the subject some more.

Who's changing the subject? And whose original statement of the subject relied on bogus numbers?
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 09:14 am
This is a tired argument that I've heard countless times, and it's amazing how people keep pulling it out of their back pockets at a time when we are witnessing the horrendous policies of the Bush adminstration.

How are civilian deaths in this country profoundly changing world opinion? Are we a nation occupied by a foreign power which decimated much of our infrastructure and allowed foreign insurgents and terrorists to permeate our society? Are our people being blown up by foreign terrorists on a daily basis? Are our "civilians" being shot at check points merely because they were driving too fast?

This argument goes way beyond apples and oranges. Violence in this country is unfortunately part of the American framework, with our 2nd ammendment rights, violent video games, and a military industrial complex which needs to feed on the poor innocents caught in the crossfires of our corporate wars. The only similarites I see, if anything, is the morality of what we are doing to another society altogether compared to the morality of not doing enough in this country to quell our thirst for violence. We buy toy guns for our children, allow them to watch violent movies on t.v. and play violent video games, and even though we complain about it from time to time (i.e., Joe Lieberman and his video game crusades), our corporate rulers rule when it comes to the bottom line. We SELL violence and teach our children about it. And yet somehow, sex is taboo.

We are quite the backwards puritanical society. But the violence in Iraq today is a direct result of our actions against a sovereign country that posed no threat to us nor it's neighbors, as it has all turned out to be.

Meanwhile, gangs proliferate and our prisons are getting full.

Stop these stupid comparisons, and talk about what we can do to end the violence in both apples and oranges for once.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 09:16 am
This 'picture' is a false construct, created by you, as a straw man for you to conveinently beat down.

Hey Brandon, how about we compare the death rate per hundred thousand with Iraq's major cities with your choice of America's major cities?? That would be a much more valid statistical comparison. Want to? Hmm?

You must really be getting tired of me showing how often you start bullsh*t threads these days, Smile

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 09:20 am
Re: Civilians Death Rate in Iraq Less Than in Washington, DC
Brandon9000 wrote:
The picture presented by some liberals of civilians being slaughtered left and right in Iraq appears to be false.

So do the figures that you are relying upon.

Brandon9000 wrote:
Now go and change the subject some more.

I'll stop if you stop.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 09:40 am
Dookiestix wrote:
Stop these stupid comparisons, and talk about what we can do to end the violence in both apples and oranges for once.

In fairness to Brandon, I think the kind of comparison he tries to make isn't stupid at all. Protecting people from getting killed is a compelling government interest, as even hardcore libertarians concede. Given that, it makes sense to set policy priorities by focusing on the most virulent killers of people, whatever they are. And when you take a cold, hard look at what they are, you discover that your priorities should be mundane things like seatbelt laws, police patrols in bad neighborhoods, and work safety regulations -- things you never hear on network TV. The contentious pet projects of the left (capital punishment, war in Iraq) and right (terrorism, illegal immigration) pale in comparison. I'd love to talk about sensible policy priorities as revealed by this benchmark.

It's just that you can't do it by posting fudged numbers, then sniping at the people pointing out they were fudged. I am confident that one day, Brandon will learn that making a mistake and not admitting it is only hurting yourself twice.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 10:21 am
Thomas wrote:
Dookiestix wrote:
Stop these stupid comparisons, and talk about what we can do to end the violence in both apples and oranges for once.

In fairness to Brandon, I think the kind of comparison he tries to make isn't stupid at all. Protecting people from getting killed is a compelling government interest, as even hardcore libertarians concede. Given that, it makes sense to set policy priorities by focusing on the most virulent killers of people, whatever they are. And when you take a cold, hard look at what they are, you discover that your priorities should be mundane things like seatbelt laws, police patrols in bad neighborhoods, and work safety regulations -- things you never hear on network TV. The contentious pet projects of the left (capital punishment, war in Iraq) and right (terrorism, illegal immigration) pale in comparison. I'd love to talk about sensible policy priorities as revealed by this benchmark.

It's just that you can't do it by posting fudged numbers, then sniping at the people pointing out they were fudged. I am confident that one day, Brandon will learn that making a mistake and not admitting it is only hurting yourself twice.

It is a comparison that is posed solely for the purpose of justifying this war in Iraq, nothing more. I've seen it countless times on other forums, and to no avail for the author. But I do agree with your non-political assessment of these issues of violence in both situations, except that violence is rather inherent in American society, and it fuels much of our decision making in regards to everyday life, as well as our foreign policies. It's the fundamental ideology that I take much issue with, in that we as a violent society need to figure out more peaceful means to deal with our problems. Such is not the case if one were to look at the U.S. prison population. We have some serious problems regarding violence in this country, and I'm afraid that it spills over into regions like the Middle East in that regard.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 10:25 am
It's been making the rounds on Conservative sites lately...

I find the propogation of memes to be quite interesting...

Cycloptichorn
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 10:59 am
Brandon misses the mark again by posting an article that just shows we should've stayed at home working to clean up our own backyard.
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 11:07 am
Setanta wrote:
I'd say he has had good scientific training, and has shown it in these fora repeatedly. However, when the subject is politics and the Shrub, he suspends his faculties of disbelief, and sees only what he wants to see, which is only that which suggests the Shrub and his policies are right.

Brandon9000 wrote:
La la la la . . . i can't hear you ! ! !

The primary characteristic of a scientist is critical thinking. Brandon demonstrates again that he sadly lacks this crucial ability.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 11:41 am
As i've already pointed out, Brandon suspends his faculty of disbelief on political topics. He has demonstrated time and again in scientific topics that he is well educated and knowledgeable. I don't intend to join your snide attempt to smear him because you disagree with him politically.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 11:45 am
Setanta wrote:
As i've already pointed out, Brandon suspends his faculty of disbelief on political topics. He has demonstrated time and again in scientific topics that he is well educated and knowledgeable. I don't intend to join your snide attempt to smear him because you disagree with him politically.

Brandon's offer of this "scientific statistic" is for the sole purpose of politically influencing other's opinions regarding the war in Iraq. Nobody is questioning the numbers here, only the motives and the reasoning behind them.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 12:35 pm
Setanta wrote:
As i've already pointed out, Brandon suspends his faculty of disbelief on political topics. He has demonstrated time and again in scientific topics that he is well educated and knowledgeable. I don't intend to join your snide attempt to smear him because you disagree with him politically.

That makes him educated, not a scientist. Please appreciate the difference.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 12:39 pm
He is employed in a scientific field, as he has stated, and i have no reason to assume that he is lying, especially in light of his posts on scientific topics--a subject, by the way, in which i have never seen you distinguish yourself. You might criticize the content of his posts, or just make personal sneers at him--please appreciate the difference, smart mouth.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 12:42 pm
DrewDad wrote:
Setanta wrote:
As i've already pointed out, Brandon suspends his faculty of disbelief on political topics. He has demonstrated time and again in scientific topics that he is well educated and knowledgeable. I don't intend to join your snide attempt to smear him because you disagree with him politically.

That makes him educated, not a scientist. Please appreciate the difference.

Probably, according to you, my degrees in Physics and work experience in the field don't make me one either.
0 Replies
 
 

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