Bible vs. Science

I suggest that you have a nice cold drink, a couple of aspirins, and that you lie down in a dark room for about a half hour, Rex. I don't hate homosexuals, nor will you be able to produce any evidence for that from anything i've ever written at this site. Nor do i suffer any insecurties about my own sexuality.

It's your buddies among the bible-thumpers who are horrified by homosexuals, it's your "brothers and sisters" in faith who condemn homosexuals--not me.

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Set I don't believe in the JEPD stuff there is only speculation and personal interpretation that backs up such an assumption. I am not alone on this.

It is like a readers digest condensed version of the Bible...

Scholars spin their wheels till they get bored and make up stuff that is no known to be true. Over time it become canonized. But it still contradicts the Bible that says Moses wrote the pentateuch.

Maybe insertions were added in later but I see no reason why Moses could not have revered both Jehovah and Elohim equally. He could have been both a prophet and a priest or deuteronomist.

JEPD is only speculation and so called biblical linguists are making this stuff up. I put no faith in JEPD.

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Setanta wrote:

I suggest that you have a nice cold drink, a couple of aspirins, and that you lie down in a dark room for about a half hour, Rex. I don't hate homosexuals, nor will you be able to produce any evidence for that from anything i've ever written at this site. Nor do i suffer any insecurties about my own sexuality.

It's your buddies among the bible-thumpers who are horrified by homosexuals, it's your "brothers and sisters" in faith who condemn homosexuals--not me.

Well I respect that and respect you for that.

Bible thumpers I don't always respect simply out of principle either.

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Setanta Wrote:

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Although that may be interesting speculation (to you, at the least), it is not evidence that any of what are reputed to have been prophecies in the bobble did in fact actually foretell the future.

I didn't say it was evidence. I need to add Speculation to my list of labels when posting. Laughing

Quote:

This is one of the hilarious aspects of theology, and especially of fundamentalist theology (whether fundamentalist christian or any other description is not that important)--the necessity to back and fill when confronted with scientific, or texual contradictions.

Well, glad you find something funny! Laughing

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It's your buddies among the bible-thumpers who are horrified by homosexuals, it's your "brothers and sisters" in faith who condemn homosexuals--not me.

I have yet to see anyone on this forum say they were horrified by homosexuals. Do you have any reference for this?

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Frank is the only one in years that has tried to use the Bible against me as a homosexual...

Ironic wouldn't you say?

I don't hold it against him. I just point out that there are more than six scriptures in the Bible that are notable...

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RexRed wrote:

Frank is the only one in years that has tried to use the Bible against me as a homosexual...

Ironic wouldn't you say?

I don't hold it against him. I just point out that there are more than six scriptures in the Bible that are notable...

I don't ever try to "use the Bible against you as a homosexual", Rex.

EVER!

I quote exactly the words of your god on the subject.

Allow me to refresh your memory about what YOUR GOD has to say about homosexual conduct:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

And I do NOT offer that in use against you...

...but rather to enjoy, and benefit from, the torture you perform on logic and languge in order to have your god saying with those words: "Nothing wrong with homosexuality in my eyes."

I'm sure you have trouble understanding how ridiculous some of your responses to that passage are...and how useful it is to someone trying to make the points I am trying to make...

...but it is considerable.

I've said many times that I love you, Rex...and that I think you are a decent, but deluded person. All of that is true...and said with complete sincerity.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

RexRed wrote:
Frank is the only one in years that has tried to use the Bible against me as a homosexual...

Ironic wouldn't you say?

I don't hold it against him. I just point out that there are more than six scriptures in the Bible that are notable...

I don't ever try to "use the Bible against you as a homosexual", Rex.

EVER!

I quote exactly the words of your god on the subject.

Allow me to refresh your memory about what YOUR GOD has to say about homosexual conduct:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

And I do NOT offer that in use against you...

...but rather to enjoy, and benefit from, the torture you perform on logic and languge in order to have your god saying with those words: "Nothing wrong with homosexuality in my eyes."

I'm sure you have trouble understanding how ridiculous some of your responses to that passage are...and how useful it is to someone trying to make the points I am trying to make...

...but it is considerable.

I've said many times that I love you, Rex...and that I think you are a decent, but deluded person. All of that is true...and said with complete sincerity.

I am not tortured by any logic of the Bible. I am absolutely confident that I am saved and heaven bound... I never doubt this. Eternal life is a "GIFT" Frank.

The only torture is that you hack the Bible into bits and miss the part that liberates the soul.

I will agree that you do not do this out of hate I know you are accepting of peoples sexuality. You do misinterpret me and what I know and you misinterpret the scope of the Bible.

Why? Well I think religion did a number on you and for that I feel sorry.

I can only hope Frank that one day you will find the true God of the Bible and leave the God of religion far behind.

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RexRed wrote:

[Frank.

The only torture is that you hack the Bible into bits and miss the part that liberates the soul.

No Rex...the tortute of logic of which I spoke involves the way you twist and torture logic in order to have that very plainly worded passage...say the exact opposite of what it says.

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I will agree that you do not do this out of hate I know you are accepting of peoples sexuality.

I am indeed.

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You do misinterpret me and what I know and you misinterpret the scope of the Bible.

No, Rex...it is you who misinterprets...and reinterprets the Bible. I understand why. The god of the Bible is one of the most disgusting gods ever invented...you are terrified of that god...and you must find ways to make it seem the god is loving, king, compassionate, and concerned with the human predicament.

This causes the tortured logic.

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Why? Well I think religion did a number on you and for that I feel sorry.

No Rex...I just grew up and put childish things behind me.

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I can only hope Frank that one day you will find the true God of the Bible...

Amazing...that was exactly what I was going to say to you.

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rex I think that you are a manipulating sunofabitch. You will use any opportunity to gain some hand in a conversation including playing a " bigot card". Ive read Franks posts an found them always to be even handed destroyers of all walks and beliefs. He never used the gay card and now youve got him backed ino a corner on the boards by your less than honest read of what hes ever said. .
I, on the other hand, have implied that you are a manipulative dick who will use almost anything available to gain a more favorable position(especially when your lack of logic doesnt cut it). This shot at Frank proves it to me. In that respect you and the new MA are of the same cloth. You use hypocrisy like people use metaphors, you walk up to a line so far, then when confronted by people who wont give you the extra inch, you start crying and become true weenies and weep about how we mistreat you.
I aint buying any of your manipulation anymore Rex.
We could have a real knock down drag out difference of opinion on these threads and never hint about personalities and "race cards" and "homophobia", wed argue our asses off and then go out for "beers". I dont think that would ever happen in your case. And Im probably less than 60 Miles North of you right now.
Youve gotta stop being caught in the act of manipulating people , its getting tiresome and truly its beneath our collective intelligences.

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Farmerman Wrote:

Quote:

....This shot at Frank proves it to me. In that respect you and the new MA are of the same cloth.

Rex is more than capable of handling himself and so am I. So, would you care to expand on that just a little so that I may address it? I would appreciate it.

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Rex--

Truly, we are the biggest gaggle of fag hags on the planet. We're more pro-gay than the gays. The only ones here who are anti-gay are the ones you've budded up with. You haven't addressed that.

Half of us are pro-gay activists. I really think you should drop the preconcieved notions and talk about the reality of what's going on here.

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Rex,
Just in case you perceive me as one of the ones you've "buddied up" with, I wanted to put in a disclaimer that you won't be finding me spouting any "anti-gay" stuff.

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Except this,..

...and this one...

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Quote:

Youve gotta stop being caught in the act of manipulating people , its getting tiresome and truly its beneath our collective intelligences.

That's a pretty good summation of how I feel about both the bible and current science research.

Both are based upon interpretation by third parties of narrow theories, opinions and guesses presented as facts intended to manipulate people toward a specific belief.

I am very tired of being told I should feel or think about something in a certain way because it is based on someone's translation of what they assume some scribe recorded on crumbling parchments to preserve memories of a small group of people in a desert thousands of years ago.

I am very tired of scientific research being twisted and used to promote profit rather than knowledge and understanding.

And yes, I do feel my intelligence insulted by both forms of manipulation.

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Lot of posts to respond to.

Snood I try not to assume anything about people.

Lash So far the right has not made any comments that have been insulting about my sexuality. This should tell us we are in good hands with them. Yes they may have inner opinions but they have so far kept them relatively silent. We all have errors in our understanding of the Bible.

As for the left. You are also supportive of my lifestyle so I really have no gripes with your either. Even if I did that is your right.

As for me manipulating people. I admit that I am a human being with motives like anyone else.

I have visions of people blessed and coming to an understanding of God.

But one thing I understand as if it were part of what I am is, you cannot force people. You can be blunt and try to show them the error of their ways. But if change is going to come it needs to come from the spirit within. To manipulate people is not so wrong if they want to be manipulated and if they trust you. But you cannot just make someone into what you want them to be. They have to become that on their own or then you have only insulted their intelligence.

Frank you have six scriptures that you throw at me. Your favorite one is the gay one... Over five years you have been throwing this gay scripture at me. I explain it and then when it suits you you throw it at me again and I explain it again. As if you never even really heard what I have ever really said. Someday I will be shrewd and test you on it. Others have already learned faster than you.

So it makes me wonder if it is just the shock factor that you are after and not the truth.

So FM when you figure out Franks motives for not listening for 5 years and simply barfing up the same gay scripture then you will be free to call my mother what you like.

Here Frank here is a scripture for YOU...

1 Corinthians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Comment:
Frank what is wrong with these scriptures?

Does it sound like it is from the same God as the gay ones you pack in your arsenal against the true God?

You are listening to the God YOU want to hear.

AGAIN, Good must overcome evil and liberty becomes a law unto itself.

But Frank, this concept goes right over your head.

You don't even try to understand.

Just in another few weeks you will again toss the same gay scripture at me and I will still believe the same thing.

You are not playing on my fears you are only using the wrong teaching and scriptural ignorance of others to prove a false witness against the one true God.

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OK--

Bringing up the excerpt in Romans hurt my feelings for you and all the other gay people I know or care about, who may have an emotional investment in the Bible.

I would never do that to hurt someone. As I've alluded to before, that one item in Romans was the beginning of my break with a more fundamentalist belief. It's too cruel.

I don't want to hurt your feelings. I just can't understand why someone would submit to a religion that has something like the Romans diatribe against an intrinsic part of who they are.

But, it's not for me to understand. It's your life.

I wish you well.

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Lash wrote:

OK--

Bringing up the excerpt in Romans hurt my feelings for you and all the other gay people I know or care about, who may have an emotional investment in the Bible.

I would never do that to hurt someone. As I've alluded to before, that one item in Romans was the beginning of my break with a more fundamentalist belief. It's too cruel.

I don't want to hurt your feelings. I just can't understand why someone would submit to a religion that has something like the Romans diatribe against an intrinsic part of who they are.

But, it's not for me to understand. It's your life.

I wish you well.

Well thanks Lash,

How about this one written by the same author as the one in Romans...

Ga 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Comment:
I am just saying that we are saved spiritually and not of works...

The new birth is a "gift" and so is eternal life.

God has not given us the spirit of fear...

Peace with God.

I love you all

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Quote:

...you cannot force people. You can be blunt and try to show them the error of their ways. But if change is going to come it needs to come from the spirit within. To manipulate people is not so wrong if they want to be manipulated and if they trust you.

That is exactly what I find so objectionable about organized religion and the farce called the bible. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than someone's interpretation of some long ago author who made up stories to coerce gullable people into being governed by and acting out of fear. The entity called god is a character created for his purpose of creating fanatics for his version of how other people should live their lives.

I am disappointed to read that you find nothing wrong with abusing people's trust of you to manipulate them. That's why I never ever set foot in a church again after having received first communion to please my father. The more I read about and experienced continuing efforts of manipulation and abuse of trust by fanatics, the more I am convinced I made the right choice long ago.

Sadly, I find myself feeling the same way about the contamination of science with corporate greed.

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Just thought i'd take the opportunity to note the hilarity which i experienced when Rex inferentially lumped Lash into "the left."

*********************************************

I don't know what motivated Xingu to begin this inquiry into the reliability of the text of the bobble. It is a topic upon which i am, however, enthusiastic. I am enthusiastic because i consider it important to stress, publicly, that the bobble is an unreliable document--and therefore ought never be considered a basis upon which legislation, or public law in any form, should be promulgated.

Biblical literalists claim that every jot and tittle of the bobble is the inerrant, divinely-revealed truth. Apart from being an hilarious contention in the face of the absurdities and contradictions contained therein--it is a frightening prescription for a nightmare society. The choice bigotries of the bobble include (while not being limited to) the condemnation of homosexuals; the promotion of slavery; the promotion of the slaughter of those who do not adhere to that confession, with specific exhortations to the slaughter of children; the relegation of women, children, servants and slaves to the status of chattels; the condemnation of and execution of women who commit adultery (men apparently get a pass on that one).

None of these are principles which i want to see written into our social contract, and i will not shrink from pointing out that the bobble is a terribly flawed document, which contradicts itself literally hundreds of times (the Noah story in Genesis Chapters Six through Nine often can't go three consecutive verses without contradicting itself), and contains so much superstitious mumbo-jumbo that it would be the height of folly to consider it a basis upon which to form a rational and humane society.

I've got no problem with people who believe in any deity--i definitely do have a problem with being imposed upon on such a basis, and especially by that vicious SOB described in the bobble. For the tedious whiners who like to start up with false allegations that i hate christians, i would point out that i am contemptuous of anyone who foists their religion upon others, and where i happen to live, the majority of that crew, almost to exclusion, are christians.

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Butrflynet wrote:

Quote:
...you cannot force people. You can be blunt and try to show them the error of their ways. But if change is going to come it needs to come from the spirit within. To manipulate people is not so wrong if they want to be manipulated and if they trust you.

That is exactly what I find so objectionable about organized religion and the farce called the bible. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than someone's interpretation of some long ago author who made up stories to coerce gullable people into being governed by and acting out of fear. The entity called god is a character created for his purpose of creating fanatics for his version of how other people should live their lives.

I am disappointed to read that you find nothing wrong with abusing people's trust of you to manipulate them. That's why I never ever set foot in a church again after having received first communion to please my father. The more I read about and experienced continuing efforts of manipulation and abuse of trust by fanatics, the more I am convinced I made the right choice long ago.

Sadly, I find myself feeling the same way about the contamination of science with corporate greed.

Even brainwashing can be a positive experience...

Having one's brain washed with truth?

The Bible's new testament was written to correct the spiritual inequality in previous religions. Also it was written to "balance" the sexual decadence of Rome.

Did it go too far? Maybe, but I think it was people not the Bible that caused the dark ages.

What was worse the dark ages or Rome? Before the new testament Bible we did not have a choice. We were locked into a liberal ROMAN society that had absolutely no real boundaries of morality.

The people armed with the Bible swung that around 180 degrees.

There are not ONLY a couple scriptures written by Paul that are against decadence but you may notice that almost everything ever written by Paul was seasoned with a distaste for Roman morality.

It was no wonder, the Roman decadence was being flaunted in the face of any and all moderation. Paul was also against strict Jewish/Islamic(or OT LAW) law...

The world was in real trouble. We can thank the Bible for the more balanced world we now live in.

That is not to say the dark ages did not go too far in rooting out "evil" but if it had not been for the Bible, George Bush would look more like Caligula or Nero today.

I do not blame Paul for trying to counter the Roman culture. It was far too in excess and far too decadent to allow to remain in full power.

I even gasp at the gay bars and circles I RARELY frequent today.

The promiscuous sex and wild abandon is sickening and not representative of civilized people. The straight bars are the same. Meat markets... I told you all, I am a moderate.

"Dirt balls for men and sex machines for women..." (quote Lucille Ball)

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