Bible vs. Science

Frank,

I would imagine you probably thought I was going to just blow a gasket, didn't you? Well, I'm not.

You think what you want. It doesn't change who or what I am or what I stand for or what I stand up for.

Have a wonderful 4th of July Frank!

Now, if y'all excuse me, I have an article to write up. I interviewed a veteran today and I was shown what true humility is and I want to do that soldier proud!

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farmerman wrote:

when does the vs. science part start up? This sounds like dueling dogmas.

This is the same sort of thing that was going on just before the Evolution How? thread got locked. I really don't know why it was locked but I am disappointed that threads like these get derailed by folks who apparently have no real interest in the topic.

I posted something a few pages back about Hawking's idea of an eternal universe. But topical posts tend to get lost in a hurry.

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Real Life,

I'm afraid I'm going to have to apologize because I am part of that derailment. Please forgive me? I hope you and yours have a wonderful 4th of July!

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

I would imagine you probably thought I was going to just blow a gasket, didn't you?

Nope.

Quote:

Well, I'm not.

Good.

Quote:

You think what you want. It doesn't change who or what I am or what I stand for or what I stand up for.

I agree. Go back to waving your flag and pay no attention to me.

Quote:

Have a wonderful 4th of July Frank!

I definitely will. You too, MA.

Quote:

Now, if y'all excuse me, I have an article to write up. I interviewed a veteran today and I was shown what true humility is and I want to do that soldier proud![/color][/b]

I wish him luck.

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farmerman wrote:

when does the vs. science part start up? This sounds like dueling dogmas.

Well lets see if we can get a discussion started on one of my favorite myths, Noah's Flood. This tale seems to come from an older story about a real flood that occurred in the Tigris-Euphrates valley. The details and introducing the God aspect into it makes it very silly if viewed literally. Like all myths there is a theme behind it but to be taken literally is downright foolish.

There are many things about this myth that screams fiction. As of yet I have never heard a good explanation of where 30,000 feet of water went (not to mention its drain hole) and how limestone containing fossils can be created in six months.

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Hee Hee. They also claim tht plate tectonics was just post creation or flood (I forget which). WE can resolve the forces that account for the taring apart and smashing together ofcontinental masses. They leave footprints of fracturing , jointing, and fold patterns in the rocks A geologist ,humorist, took all this plate tectonics views freom Creationists and computed how fast the continents would have to be moving to accomplish all this continental drift in an earth that is so young according to them. Since the Atlantic had been opened and closed at least three times in the Paleozoic and Mesozoic, he came up witha speed of about 0.7 miles per ay. Now thats not gonna get you a ticket but we would notice a weeks worth of drifting. Its about 17 miles per month. Our maps would need fixing very frequently and GPS would be giving screwey readings all the time.

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xingu wrote:

Well lets see if we can get a discussion started on one of my favorite myths, Noah's Flood. This tale seems to come from an older story about a real flood that occurred in the Tigris-Euphrates valley.

Yeah, that's one of my favorites, too.

As for floods in the valley of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, that's like earthquakes in California--who's gonna notice. In fact, it now appears that just post-glacial, the basin in which both the black and the Caspian Seas are located filled with melt water, at a time when the outlet to the west was being tilted up by the weight of the retreating ice cap. This would have made islands of the Caucasus Mountains, and of the Crimean penninsula. The Meda and the Pharsee, who became known as the Medes and Persians (so-called by the Greeks), were likely either resident in that area, or spent generations in that area at some point after the retreat of the glaciation, and before entering the Iranian plateau.

The Jews were largely illiterate, semi-nomadic herders--hillbillies--at the time of the Babylonian captivity. The Meda and the Pharsee had entered the Iranian plateau millenia earlier, and may well have been the source of the flood story in The Gilgamesh Epic, which document, give its antiquity, is the likely source of a good deal of the popular mumbo-jumbo of Genesis. Additionally, the Meda and Pharsee introduced the concept of monotheism into the middle east, and had finally successfully pushed over the Zargros Moutains and into "the fertile crescent" just before the Babylonian Captivity.

I like the flood story because whoever cobbled it together was so woefully clueless both about how diverse life is, and about the engineering of wooden vessels of any considerable size, nevermind a wooden behemoth such as "the Ark" is described as being. Even conservative estimates of what the length of a cubit was makes "the Ark" as large as or larger than the largest wooden warships in the age of sail. Quite apart from the dimensions given being a prescription for disaster in such a vessel, and the apparent ignorance that the weight of wood would have crushed the vessel's hull if it had not been launched immediately after the basic hull was laid down--them boys had no notion that it was actually far too small to have packed in all the critters needed to account for the diversity of life and all the fossil record.

I love the flood story--it's so far out there, it's hilarious.

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Ive finally resolved the mysterious "Gopher wood" on the arks materials list. Actually it wasnt a heretofore unknown species of wood. It was Noah telling Shem.
"Hey Shem, were outta siding laps, so--- GOFER some more wood"

I thanks you.

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But we must remember that creationist have an answer for all inconsistences;

IT'S A MIRACLE!!

God made it that way to test our faith. Or, anyway that's what a SDA lady told me one time.

Real says dinosaures lived with man (he supplies no evidence, of course) and were on the ark as babies.

Here's what the SDA (Seventh Day Adventist) say;

Quote:

What happened to the dinosaurs? Did the climate turn colder millions of years ago, did a great meteor hit earth causing dust that blocked out the sun killing plants that the dinosaurs relied on for food, etc. Guess what God revealed to her? God put the fear of man in all animals but since sin entered even the animals and indeed all nature itself is in rebellion so the huge animals because of their great size posed a special threat to mankind so God had Noah leave them behind. You don't have to like EGW to believe this because it just makes sense. They discover huge fossils in places where these creatures were never known to exist only the flood accounts for this. But I'm sure you have an answer for this since your ideas can't possibly be wrong. I know, you probably don't even believe from Adam and Eve to now is only about 6,000 years. Yes, you're right those dinosaurs were 50 to 100 million years old. Guess what? You bury a body and in one year it's gone. About 5 years the bone turns to dust and after 20 years you can't even find bone or teeth. Could anyone believe that remains last 100 years, a 1,000 years, a 1,000,000 years times 100? So EGW was correct that not everything was taken into the ark.

SOURCE

Note: EGW is Ellen G. White. Her writings help found the SDA.

See the difference between Reals "logical" explanation and the SAD's "logical" cause. This is what happens when you try to deduce something without evidence. You can come with a dozen "logical" explanations that make sense but they're all wrong.

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xingu's quote source wrote:

Guess what? You bury a body and in one year it's gone. About 5 years the bone turns to dust and after 20 years you can't even find bone or teeth. Could anyone believe that remains last 100 years, a 1,000 years, a 1,000,000 years times 100? So EGW was correct that not everything was taken into the ark.

This is an example of how the whole dodge works. Soft tissue remains, depending upon circumstances, can last for years. The "Iceman" found high in the Alps has survived thousands of years because of the cold. Certain bogs which are inimical to the bacteria which "rot" the flesh of dead critters have preserved remains for thousands of years as well.

These are lies. Soft tissue can last a lot longer than a year, even in what we could not consider extraordinary circumstances. Bones and teeth last for centuries and even millenia without extraordinary preservation conditions. Under the most ordinary of burial practices in the christian west, bones and teeth do not turn to dust in twenty years. The pap the religionists feed to the credulous need only sound plausible, because it is predicated upon and reliant upon the ignorance of the audience.

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I know dinosaurs coexisted with humans, because I have been a lifelong reader of Alley Oop comic strips. For those who don't know, Oop had a pet brontosaur, named Dinney.

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Did you notice they said all large animals. This show the typical ignorance of creationist; they thought all dinosaurs were large. When you don't know anything then anything will seem logical.

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xingu wrote:

farmerman wrote:
when does the vs. science part start up? This sounds like dueling dogmas.

Well lets see if we can get a discussion started on one of my favorite myths, Noah's Flood. This tale seems to come from an older story about a real flood that occurred in the Tigris-Euphrates valley. The details and introducing the God aspect into it makes it very silly if viewed literally. Like all myths there is a theme behind it but to be taken literally is downright foolish.

There are many things about this myth that screams fiction. As of yet I have never heard a good explanation of where 30,000 feet of water went (not to mention its drain hole) and how limestone containing fossils can be created in six months.

hi xingu,

I think we've covered this before.

The Bible doesn't say there was 30,000 feet of water.

So if you want to compare the Biblical text to something, then you should argue against what it says and not against what it doesn't say.

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Quote:

The Bible doesn't say there was 30,000 feet of water.

OK, how many feet of water did it say?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Real Life,

I'm afraid I'm going to have to apologize because I am part of that derailment. Please forgive me? I hope you and yours have a wonderful 4th of July!

Quite all right, Momma Angel.

We all stray from the topic now and again, but sometimes the topic gets permanently lost . It was disappointing to see the Evolution How? thread get sidetracked and ultimately locked. I don't even think you were in the thread at the time, it wasn't your fault.

Hope you have a good holiday, too.

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real life wrote:

xingu wrote:
farmerman wrote:
when does the vs. science part start up? This sounds like dueling dogmas.

Well lets see if we can get a discussion started on one of my favorite myths, Noah's Flood. This tale seems to come from an older story about a real flood that occurred in the Tigris-Euphrates valley. The details and introducing the God aspect into it makes it very silly if viewed literally. Like all myths there is a theme behind it but to be taken literally is downright foolish.

There are many things about this myth that screams fiction. As of yet I have never heard a good explanation of where 30,000 feet of water went (not to mention its drain hole) and how limestone containing fossils can be created in six months.

hi xingu,

I think we've covered this before.

The Bible doesn't say there was 30,000 feet of water.

So if you want to compare the Biblical text to something, then you should argue against what it says and not against what it doesn't say.

Yeah, Xingu...go with what the Bible text says...will ya.

Let's see now...

...the Bible says that Noah released a raven and a dove...and neither could find any place to perch...it was all covered with water. Which means that the Earth was only covered to....say...the summit of Mt. Ararat...which is 5137 meters high...which translates to 16,853 feet.

Yeah...you are way off.

Say 18,000 feet.

See if that makes any difference to someone with his/her mind tightly shut closed.

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Of course, if we restrict ourselves to Mount Ararat, then the biblical literalists will be obliged to explain Mount Everest and K2--which are considerably higher than that.

The member "real life" has also not addressed plausibly the whoppers involved in the dimensions and the capacity of the putative "Ark," either.

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Does the Bible didn't give the number of feet or not?

Quote:

7:19
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered.

7:20
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

7:21
And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

7:22
All in whose nostrils [was] the breath of life, of all that [was] in the dry [land], died.

7:23
And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark.

7:24
And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

Fifteen cubits? Lets see that 25.4 feet. Do you think the tallest mountain on earth was only 25 feet Real?

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Setanta wrote:

Of course, if we restrict ourselves to Mount Ararat, then the biblical literalists will be obliged to explain Mount Everest and K2--which are considerably higher than that.

The member "real life" has also not addressed plausibly the whoppers involved in the dimensions and the capacity of the putative "Ark," either.

I was cutting RL a break...which is only charitable considering the laughable crap he has to defend.

If we do bring Everest and K2 into the mix...we go back up to Xingu's original 30,000 feet.

But he might do better explaining why so many cartoon characters are drawn with only 4 fingers instead of 5....especially since most don't have fingers at all.

In fact, dealing with that question might make more sense than the one he is tackling.

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I'm not going to reprise it here, but in the "Evolution? How?" thread, i put together an extremely long post to explain why the description of the Ark represents a tour de force display of abyssmal ignorance of basic naval architecture for wooden vessels. The response of "real life" was kind of a laughing "well gee, i don't know about all of that," after which he turned to some minutiae about the number of animals which would have been on board and the possibility that they would have been juveniles. In other words, having demonstrated that the vessel of which he speaks is not only implausible, but impossible, and still would not have had sufficient hull capacity for the total number of species to be carried on board--he resumes the argument on the basis of the assumption that such a vessel was possible, and that it would have had the capacity for all of the animals to have been transported.

This is par for the course for him, though, as he always changes the subject when he's driven to wall on any point.

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