9
   

Fight the U.N. Gun Ban

 
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 21 Apr, 2008 10:05 pm
Advocate wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Advocate wrote:
Dave, those cases could be interpreted as saying that 2A grants a right to the individual in the context of his or her membership in a well-regulated militia. That interpretation would meet the explicit wording of 2A.


The Second Amendment protects pre-existing rights. It doesn't "grant" anything.

The main problem with your interpretation is the government does not allow anyone to serve in a well-regulated militia, thus denying them their Second Amendment rights.


This is just too wacky.


No, it's common legal knowledge. Never heard of the English Bill of Rights? Blackstone's Fifth Auxiliary Right?



Advocate wrote:
For instance, there is no pre-existing right of free speech and press.


Oh? Says who?



Advocate wrote:
The National Guard is a militia.


Not in any Constitutional sense. The Constitution limits the militia to repelling invasion, suppressing insurrections, and enforcing the law. There is nothing about going overseas and invading other countries like the National Guard does.

The Second Amendment also says people get to "keep" their guns; it isn't just a right to bear them. Yet Guardsmen don't get to take their M-16s home like a militiaman would. The government keeps their M16s for them.

The National Guard doesn't even come close to satisfying any constitutional requirements for a militia.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 05:39 am
Advocate wrote:
Dave, please give me the actual words from Verdugo
that state that the word "people" has the same meaning wherever used
in the constitution.


11O S.Ct. 1O56
1O8 L.Ed.2d 222, 58 USLW 4263
(Cite as: 494 U.S. 259, 11O S.Ct. 1O56)

UNITED STATES, Petitioner
v.
Rene Martin VERDUGO URQUIDEZ.

Supreme Court of the United States

Argued Nov. 7, 1989.

Decided Feb. 28, 199O.
Rehearing Denied April 16, 199O

Chief Justice REHNQUIST delivered the opinion of the Court.

"the people" seems to have been a term of art employed in
select parts of the Constitution.
The Preamble declares that the Constitution is ordained and established
by "the People of the United States."

THE SECOND AMENDMENT
PROTECTS "THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS
," and
the Ninth and Tenth Amendments provide that certain rights and powers
are retained by and reserved to "the people."
See also U.S. Const., Amdt. 1 ("Congress shall make no law ... abridging...
the right of the people peaceably to assemble") (emphasis added);
Art. I, ยง 2, cl. 1
("The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen
every second Year by the People of the several States") (emphasis added).
While this textual exegesis is by no means conclusive, it suggests
that "THE PEOPLE" PROTECTED BY THE FOURTH AMENDMENT,
AND BY THE FIRST AND SECOND AMENDMENTS
, and to whom rights
and powers are reserved in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments,
refers to A CLASS OF PERSONS who are part of a national
community or who have otherwise
developed sufficient connection with this country
to be considered part of that community.
...
The available historical data show, therefore, that the purpose of the Fourth Amendment
was to protect the people of the United States against arbitrary action by their own Government;

... To support his all encompassing view of the Fourth Amendment, respondent points to language from the plurality opinion in Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S. 1, 77 S.Ct. 1222, 1 L.Ed.2d 1148 (1957). Reid involved an attempt by Congress to subject the wives of American servicemen to trial by military tribunals without the protection of the Fifth and Sixth Amendments. The Court held that it was unconstitutional to apply the Uniform Code of Military Justice to the trials of the American women for capital crimes. Four Justices "reject [ed] the idea that when the United States acts against citizens abroad it can do so free of the Bill of Rights." Id., at 5, 77 S.Ct., at 1224 (emphasis added). The plurality went on to say:
"The United States is entirely a creature of the Constitution.
Its power and authority have no other source.
It can only act in accordance with all the limitations imposed by the Constitution.
..."
[ALL EMPHASIS ADDED BY DAVID for ease of use]

The USSC refers to " a term of art " = ONE term of art
and to :
" a class of persons " = ONE class of persons embracing those
who can speak, freely, worship freely, and keep and bear arms freely

As an opponent of personal liberty, Advocate,
u can take comfort in :

1 ) the Court 's saying that:
" ... this textual exegesis is by no means conclusive... "

and

2) that the USSC is going to do whatever its members vote to DO

and that

3) there is only a narrow question before the Court.
That question does not bear upon the powers of the state governments.

As a friend of personal freedom,
I will take comfort in this being one step along the path
to tearing down and annihilating any government 's control or influence
(however slight) over any citizen's possession of defensive guns.

( As u know, my own personal preference is to get rid of [isolate from the decent people]
intolerably dangerous men [ judged by criteria of recidivistic violence ]
and just forget about their TOOLS. )

David
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 05:41 am
Keep means it's mine and you can't have it.
Bear means it's right here with me.
Shall not be infringed means F*** you and drive safely.

-Nuge
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:14 am
cjhsa wrote:
Keep means it's mine and you can't have it.
Bear means it's right here with me.
Shall not be infringed means F*** you and drive safely.

-Nuge

SO STIPULATED





DAVID
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:39 am
oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
Oralloy,

What is the purpose of iv if iii deals with all ammo for rifles?

Since your contention is that all ammo can be fired from pistols then iv would have no validity in your world but the amendment included it. Why would they include a meaningless part?


iii doesn't include "all" rifle ammo. It only includes rifle ammo that can be fired from a handgun.

All 30-30 ammo can be fired from a handgun.

So can all .223 Remington ammo and all .308 Winchester ammo.

Here is some of what Senator Kennedy had to say when he proposed the same amendment to a different bill:

Quote:
Another rifle caliber, the 30.30 caliber, was responsible for penetrating three officers' armor and killing them in 1993, 1996, and 2002. This ammunition is also capable of puncturing light-armored vehicles, ballistic or armored glass, armored limousines, even a 600-pound safe with 600 pounds of safe armor plating.

It is outrageous and unconscionable that such ammunition continues to be sold in the United States of America.


His words should be available on this page:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2004_record&page=S1634&position=all

I'm having trouble downloading that page tonight (50% success rate when I test the link), but presumably that is a temporary problem. The quote is from page S1634 of the 2004 Congressional record (which is what the link should lead to).

You mean Kennedy actually said 30-30 was a "rifle" caliber? Wow. Kind of defeats your argument that his intent was to ban "pistol" caliber capable of penetrating armor. :wink:
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  0  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 07:43 am
I suppose those rifle calibers COULD be fired from a handgun, but guns of that type are exceedingly rare if they exist at all.

What am I missing here?

Maybe this. The Kel-Tec SU-16C has a folding stock, fires .223 Rem, and when folded, actually qualifies as a pistol under Michigan CPL laws. So if you had a CPL, you could legally carry it in your car, but trying to fit it under your shirt might be a bit of a problem. Smile
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 12:44 pm
Advocate wrote:
Dave, you find lexophiles very persuasive. Their findings are less than scientific, as illustrated by the following.



1. I wondered why the baseball was getting bigger. Then it hit me

2. Police were called to a day care where a three-year-old was
resisting a rest.

3. Did you hear about the guy whose whole left side was cut off? He's all right now.

4. To write with a broken pencil is pointless.

5. The short fortune teller who escaped from prison was a small medium at
large.

6. A thief who stole a calendar got twelve months.

7. When the smog lifts in Los Angeles, U.C.L.A

8. The math professor went crazy with the blackboard. He did a number on it!

9. The professor discovered that her theory of earthquakes was on shaky
ground.

10. The dead batteries were given out free of charge.

11. A dentist and a manicurist fought tooth and nail.

12. A bicycle can't stand alone; it is just two-tired.

13. A will is a dead giveaway.

14. A backward poet writes inverse.

15. A chicken crossing the road: poultry in motion.

16. With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.

17. A grenade fell onto a kitchen floor in France, resulted in linoleum
blownapart.

18. He broke into song because he couldn't find the key.

19. A calendar's days are numbered.

20. A boiled egg is hard to beat.

21. If you jump off a Paris bridge, you are in Seine.

22. When she saw her first strands of gray hair, she thought she'd dye.

23. Bakers trade bread recipes on a knead-to-know basis.

24. Acupuncture: a jab well done

I love them, Advocate !
Especially, 3, 4, 12 - 14 Thanx !

I emailed them to friends.




David
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  0  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 01:03 pm
Screw the UN. For now, we have to fight dipshits in Kansas and Nebraska. These people are just downright stupid. "Protect me from myself oh great and powerful benevolent government". Chimps.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 01:11 pm
Henry Cabot Lodge the Elder was right




David
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:19 pm
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
Oralloy,

What is the purpose of iv if iii deals with all ammo for rifles?

Since your contention is that all ammo can be fired from pistols then iv would have no validity in your world but the amendment included it. Why would they include a meaningless part?


iii doesn't include "all" rifle ammo. It only includes rifle ammo that can be fired from a handgun.

All 30-30 ammo can be fired from a handgun.

So can all .223 Remington ammo and all .308 Winchester ammo.

Here is some of what Senator Kennedy had to say when he proposed the same amendment to a different bill:

Quote:
Another rifle caliber, the 30.30 caliber, was responsible for penetrating three officers' armor and killing them in 1993, 1996, and 2002. This ammunition is also capable of puncturing light-armored vehicles, ballistic or armored glass, armored limousines, even a 600-pound safe with 600 pounds of safe armor plating.

It is outrageous and unconscionable that such ammunition continues to be sold in the United States of America.


His words should be available on this page:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2004_record&page=S1634&position=all

I'm having trouble downloading that page tonight (50% success rate when I test the link), but presumably that is a temporary problem. The quote is from page S1634 of the 2004 Congressional record (which is what the link should lead to).

You mean Kennedy actually said 30-30 was a "rifle" caliber? Wow. Kind of defeats your argument that his intent was to ban "pistol" caliber capable of penetrating armor. :wink:


Kennedy's intent is to ban any ammo that can defeat Kevlar when fired from a handgun.

No one has said that the .223 Remington .30-30 Winchester, or .308 Winchester are pistol calibers -- just that they can be fired from handguns (and can blow through Kevlar with ease).
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:26 pm
cjhsa wrote:
I suppose those rifle calibers COULD be fired from a handgun, but guns of that type are exceedingly rare if they exist at all.

What am I missing here?

Maybe this. The Kel-Tec SU-16C has a folding stock, fires .223 Rem, and when folded, actually qualifies as a pistol under Michigan CPL laws. So if you had a CPL, you could legally carry it in your car, but trying to fit it under your shirt might be a bit of a problem. Smile


Here is the handgun that can fire the .30-30 Winchester:

http://www.magnumresearch.com/bfr.asp


Here is one of the handguns that can fire the .223 Remington:

http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/plr16.html


Not sure which ones fire the .308 Winchester or 7.62x39, but they are out there too.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  0  
Tue 22 Apr, 2008 06:29 pm
Mind you comrades there is hell after death.
Enjoy your heavenly bliss whil you uphold the unfulfilled Aerican dreams and fail not to show your fag as a mark of your birth place .
I am a critical athiest who support non-barbarism
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Wed 23 Apr, 2008 06:47 am
Ramafuchs wrote:
Mind you comrades there is hell after death.
Enjoy your heavenly bliss whil you uphold the unfulfilled Aerican dreams and fail not to show your fag as a mark of your birth place .
I am a critical athiest who support non-barbarism

Can u PROVE your allegation that there is hell after death ?
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Wed 23 Apr, 2008 07:42 am
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Ramafuchs wrote:
Mind you comrades there is hell after death.
Enjoy your heavenly bliss whil you uphold the unfulfilled Aerican dreams and fail not to show your fag as a mark of your birth place .
I am a critical athiest who support non-barbarism

Can u PROVE your allegation that there is hell after death ?

Hell is an internet debate between OmSigDAVID and Ramafuchs.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Wed 23 Apr, 2008 08:19 am
joefromchicago wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Ramafuchs wrote:
Mind you comrades there is hell after death.
Enjoy your heavenly bliss whil you uphold the unfulfilled Aerican dreams and fail not to show your fag as a mark of your birth place .
I am a critical athiest who support non-barbarism

Can u PROVE your allegation that there is hell after death ?

Hell is an internet debate between OmSigDAVID and Ramafuchs.

I 'm just having a little fun with him, Joe.
I 'm retired and have a lot of freedom on my hands.

How r things in Chicago ?




David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Wed 23 Apr, 2008 08:41 am
Advocate wrote:
Dave, you find lexophiles very persuasive. Their findings are less than scientific, as illustrated by the following.



1. I wondered why the baseball was getting bigger. Then it hit me

2. Police were called to a day care where a three-year-old was
resisting a rest.

3. Did you hear about the guy whose whole left side was cut off? He's all
right now.

4. To write with a broken pencil is pointless.

5. The short fortune teller who escaped from prison was a small medium at
large.

6. A thief who stole a calendar got twelve months.

7. When the smog lifts in Los Angeles, U.C.L.A

8. The math professor went crazy with the blackboard. He did a number on it!

9. The professor discovered that her theory of earthquakes was on shaky
ground.

10. The dead batteries were given out free of charge.

11. A dentist and a manicurist fought tooth and nail.

12. A bicycle can't stand alone; it is just two-tired.

13. A will is a dead giveaway.

14. A backward poet writes inverse.

15. A chicken crossing the road: poultry in motion.

16. With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.

17. A grenade fell onto a kitchen floor in France, resulted in linoleum
blownapart.

18. He broke into song because he couldn't find the key.

19. A calendar's days are numbered.

20. A boiled egg is hard to beat.

21. If you jump off a Paris bridge, you are in Seine.

22. When she saw her first strands of gray hair, she thought she'd dye.

23. Bakers trade bread recipes on a knead-to-know basis.

24. Acupuncture: a jab well done

R these COPYRIGHTED ??

If not, I 'll c if I can have them published
for the amusement of NY Mensans.




David
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Wed 23 Apr, 2008 02:16 pm
Dave, I am sorry, but I don't know whether the lexophile joke is copyrighted. In fact, I don't remember the source of this.

Thanks for your work answering my question on Verdugo. I disagree that the case somehow mandates a uniform definition of the word "people." For instance, it points to the mention of the word in Art. 1 in connection with voting. As you know, only those who meet certain qualifications may vote. One can argue that, relative to 2A, only the people who are members of a militia have an unfettered right to bear arms.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Wed 23 Apr, 2008 03:14 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Ramafuchs wrote:
Mind you comrades there is hell after death.
Enjoy your heavenly bliss whil you uphold the unfulfilled Aerican dreams and fail not to show your fag as a mark of your birth place .
I am a critical athiest who support non-barbarism

Can u PROVE your allegation that there is hell after death ?


People who go through near-death experiences tend to report seeing their life flash in front of their eyes. One part of that process is said to involve reliving every negative and positive experience that they caused other people, from the other person's perspective.

Don't know if that counts as hell, but if someone goes around causing pain to other people, it seems likely they will have to experience all that pain themselves once they die.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Wed 23 Apr, 2008 03:17 pm
Advocate wrote:
One can argue that, relative to 2A, only the people who are members of a militia have an unfettered right to bear arms.


People have the right to join the militia. The government is violating this right by not providing them a militia to join if they wish.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Wed 23 Apr, 2008 04:29 pm
Advocate wrote:
Dave, I am sorry, but I don't know whether the lexophile joke is copyrighted.
In fact, I don't remember the source of this.

OK; thanx anyway.




Quote:
Thanks for your work answering my question on Verdugo.
I disagree that the case somehow mandates a uniform definition of the word "people."

but that 's the court 's holding

The whole decision turns upon WHICH people are protected
by the Bill of Rights. Following its precedent in JOHNSON v. EISENTRAGER 339 US 763, (195O),
the court holds that the people who r protected by the 4th Amendment
are the same as those who are protected by
the First Amendment, the SECOND Amendment, the Ninth Amendment
and the Tenth Amendment, as well as those who can vote.

I don t think that 's hard to understand.








Quote:
For instance, it points to the mention of the word in Art. 1 in connection with voting.
As you know, only those who meet certain qualifications may vote.

Yes; it is INCLUSIVE, but not limited to;
i.e., those who can vote for Congressmen, are included with those who
can speak freely and who can worship freely and who can freely keep and bear arms.





Quote:
One can argue that, relative to 2A, only the people who are members of a militia have an unfettered right to bear arms.

The whole point of the holding disproves any merit in that argument,
inasmuch as the court explicitly holds that the SAME people are protected
by the First, SECOND, Fourth, Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

Unless ONLY militiamen are free to go to Church,
this holding declares that everyone, ALL of "the people" are protected equally
by the entire Bill of Rights, and equal protection of the laws prevails.
David
0 Replies
 
 

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