9
   

Fight the U.N. Gun Ban

 
 
JustanObserver
 
  1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 01:56 pm
Yeah. Pretty much the answer I was expecting. A avoid some points, ignoring others, and misdirecting on the rest. Well done.


-You made a significant comment about guns/knives and you didn't source a link or back it up. I can't make that any more clear for you.
- Another poster asked "oralloy must be assuming that all the people that have been killed (or maimed) by firearms would have been killed (or maimed ) by a knife anyway ?". You responded to it with a claim without a link or source.
- If you don't want other people "jumping in" to address your point, then don't make make your point on a public forum. PM that person if you want to keep it between the two of you.
- The argument your trying to put across with your "cars are only regulated if you drive them in public" comment is just too foolish to even address.
- You were the one to make the absurd connection between guns and cars. Try comparing oranges and apples next time. It'll make more sense.

I see how pointless trying to make you realize some of these very basic concepts was. Sorry I bothered.



"Never argue with idiots. They just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 01:57 pm
oralloy,

And if you bothered to read the treaty it deals only with illicit trafficking and manufacturing.

Comparing prohibitions on illegal trafficking to banning guns IS disingenuous.


Now about that statistic you claimed that getting rid of guns doesn't affect the murder rate.... Where can I find that? You haven't seemed to provide it even though people questioned how it could be true.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 02:29 pm
JustanObserver wrote:
- If you don't want other people "jumping in" to address your point, then don't make make your point on a public forum. PM that person if you want to keep it between the two of you.


I see you lack basic reading comprehension.

That is probably also the reason you are generally clueless on the gun issue. You just never understand anything.

Someone should train you though to not make wild attacks just because you can't understand what is being said.



JustanObserver wrote:
- The argument your trying to put across with your "cars are only regulated if you drive them in public" comment is just too foolish to even address.


You freedom haters always run when confronted with facts. Maybe if you keep on running from the facts, you'll end up in the same cave as Osama.

He hates our freedom too.



JustanObserver wrote:
- You were the one to make the absurd connection between guns and cars. Try comparing oranges and apples next time. It'll make more sense.


It is not the fault of my argument that you can't make sense of it. If you were to take a remedial reading comprehension course, things might begin to make a lot more sense to you.
0 Replies
 
JustanObserver
 
  1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 02:37 pm
Aaaaaaaand still no link to sources or facts about the gun / knives claim that Oralloy made. Even though it's been raised about 6 or seven times since he's mentioned it.

At least we got the "freedom hater" comment again, and as a bonus he threw in the Osama line. Nice.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 02:52 pm
parados wrote:
And if you bothered to read the treaty it deals only with illicit trafficking and manufacturing.


I've read the treaty, probably before you even knew the treaty existed.

It does not serve your cause to continue to insinuate that I have not read it.



parados wrote:
Comparing prohibitions on illegal trafficking to banning guns IS disingenuous.


Not when there is a mountain of evidence that says that the treaty in question is only the first step in a plot to create a treaty that does ban civilian ownership of most types of guns.



parados wrote:
Now about that statistic you claimed that getting rid of guns doesn't affect the murder rate.... Where can I find that?


Well, you can compare gun ownership rates to homicide rates in various countries:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html



Or you could look at countries like Australia, which banned civilian ownership of most guns. Their murder rate dipped only slightly (can't say the same of their robbery rates however).

http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/5F71A98CD4A060C2CA256D350002F50A/$File/45100_2002.pdf
http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/A05E3DBEC1109735CA257178001B69FC/$File/45100_2005.pdf

Robbery Rates (per 100,000 people):

1993: 72.3
1994: 78.2
1995: 80.6
1996: 89.4
1997: 115.0
1998: 127.1
1999: 119.4
2000: 121.8
2001: 137.0
2002: 106.9
2003: 99.2
2004: 82.2
2005: 82.6


Murder Rates (per 100,000 people):

1993: 1.7
1994: 1.6
1995: 1.8
1996: 1.7
1997: 1.7
1998: 1.5
1999: 1.8
2000: 1.6
2001: 1.6
2002: 1.6
2003: 1.5
2004: 1.3
2005: 1.3
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 02:57 pm
JustanObserver wrote:
Aaaaaaaand still no link to sources or facts about the gun / knives claim that Oralloy made. Even though it's been raised about 6 or seven times since he's mentioned it.


What are you whining about?

You lack the reading comprehension to even understand what was claimed, much less comprehend any supporting evidence.



JustanObserver wrote:
At least we got the "freedom hater" comment again, and as a bonus he threw in the Osama line. Nice.


The perfect way to respond to someone like you.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 02:58 pm
JustanObserver wrote:
oralloy wrote:





OmSigDAVID wrote:
JustanObserver wrote:
There is nothing wrong with responsible regulation of firearms.


Gun control comes from USURPATION of political power that was explicitly put beyond the reach of government.


I'm trying not to put words in your mouth, but are you telling me that there should be no regulation of firearms? Or are you only for minimal regulation of firearms?

I'm not kidding here. What level of regulation/registration do you think is appropriate?



By assuring an armed populace,
the Founders physically put sovereignty into the hands of the citizens.

US Supreme Ct Justice Joseph Story (1811-1845) said:
"The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been
considered as the Palladium of the liberties of the republic
since it offers a strong moral check against usurpation and arbitrary power
of the rulers; and will generally...enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
3 J. Story COMMENTARIES ON THE CONSTITUTION 746

His view was adopted by the US Supreme Ct in US v. MILLER 3O7 US 174 (1939)
together with that of Judge Thomas Cooley
who reiterated that idea, adding:
"The meaning of the provision...is that the people ...shall have the right
to keep and bear arms
and they need no permission or regulation of law for the purpose."

The Constitution no more allows any government to control guns
than to edit the Bible or control who has one.

(It should be borne in mind that any conflict between the Constitution
of 1787 [e.g. interstate commerce clause] and the Bill of Rights
must be resolved to favor the Bill of Rights
because those rights were changes to the original instrument.)





Quote:

Because if you're implying that there should be absolutely NO regulation/restriction on gun ownership,
It'll give me a good idea of just who I'm talking to over here

That sounds like u endeavor to influence my answer
by cajoling me to earn your favor or fear
the penalty of your sharp retort.
:

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/3363/screwball1br.jpg
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 06:41 pm
An almost 25% reduction in murder rates in Australia since 1996 is a slight dip?

In the same time period attempted murders also dropped by 30%.

It appears that the gun law if anything created a 30% drop in murders and attempted murders. It certainly didn't lead to the same rate or substantially the same rate.

In the same time period robberies went down too. (both armed and unarmed.) There was a spike in armed robberies the first 2 years after the law but it is now 20% less than it was prior to the law.

Your other website is pointless since it uses many different single years from many different countries and is hardly a comparison. How can I compare 1996 in Uganda to 2002 in the USA and expect any type of reasonable comparison? Too easy to cherry pick the single year to make the point.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 09:12 pm
parados wrote:
An almost 25% reduction in murder rates in Australia since 1996 is a slight dip?


For a rate already low, yes.

And I am not convinced that the 1.3 numbers are here to stay. I think it's more likely that they went from an average of 1.7 to an average of 1.6.



parados wrote:
In the same time period robberies went down too. (both armed and unarmed.) There was a spike in armed robberies the first 2 years after the law but it is now 20% less than it was prior to the law.


Looks to me like the 2005 numbers are still significantly higher than the 1993 numbers, and are higher than the 1994 and 1995 numbers.



parados wrote:
Your other website is pointless since it uses many different single years from many different countries and is hardly a comparison. How can I compare 1996 in Uganda to 2002 in the USA and expect any type of reasonable comparison? Too easy to cherry pick the single year to make the point.


Has nothing to do with cherrypicking. Governments do not always release the relevant information in a timely manner.

Besides, huge changes in the crime rates are not all that likely.

(Or are there years where Switzerland had a huge homicide rate that I don't know about?)
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  0  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 09:41 pm
Actually, if you pinko control freaks really want to protect the public, there is no reason to stop with guns.

Consider the things you can commit murder with, including hunting bows, axes, knives, baseball bats, cricket batts, ice picks....

I mean, considering the known propensity of leftists and libertines like the Kennedy clan to commit sex crimes, somebody who was really serious about being a control freak out to protect the public would probably insist on having their weenies surgically removed prior to puberty...
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Sun 4 Jun, 2006 11:10 pm
gungasnake wrote:
Actually, if you pinko control freaks really want to protect the public, there is no reason to stop with guns.

Consider the things you can commit murder with, including hunting bows, axes, knives, baseball bats, cricket batts, ice picks....


Did criminals wait around for guns to be invented
b4 beginning to commit crimes of violent depredation ?

The repressionists want to remove guns, saying that they are sometimes used
to facilitate crime. They fail to understand that the actual weapon
is the HUMAN MIND, whose cleverness has not been controlled nor
restrained (even in prison).

This mind expresses itself perseveringly,
into the manifestation of its felt needs or desires, and it has FOREVER
to do the job that it selects (e.g., the art of the gunsmith/merchant). Prohibition is futile.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 07:05 am
oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
An almost 25% reduction in murder rates in Australia since 1996 is a slight dip?


For a rate already low, yes.

And I am not convinced that the 1.3 numbers are here to stay. I think it's more likely that they went from an average of 1.7 to an average of 1.6.
So the steady downward progression and 2 years at 1.3 means it is really 1.7? Nice try oralloy. Lets all pretend that the UN wants to take your guns away too.


Quote:

parados wrote:
In the same time period robberies went down too. (both armed and unarmed.) There was a spike in armed robberies the first 2 years after the law but it is now 20% less than it was prior to the law.


Looks to me like the 2005 numbers are still significantly higher than the 1993 numbers, and are higher than the 1994 and 1995 numbers.
significantly? A rather interesting use of that word. There is almost no change if a it is 25% diferent but a number that is only 13% different is significantly different?
robbery rate in 1993 is 72.3 and the 2005 rate is 82.6 (2004 is 82.2)
Then you claim that 80.6 in 1994 is lower than 82.6 in 2005 but 1.3 in 2005 is only a slight dip from 1.7? Your use of words and statistics is highly suspect oralloy.


Quote:

parados wrote:
Your other website is pointless since it uses many different single years from many different countries and is hardly a comparison. How can I compare 1996 in Uganda to 2002 in the USA and expect any type of reasonable comparison? Too easy to cherry pick the single year to make the point.


Has nothing to do with cherrypicking. Governments do not always release the relevant information in a timely manner.
It has everything to do with cherry picking.
Quote:

Besides, huge changes in the crime rates are not all that likely.
It depends on your definition of 'huge'. Do you mean 25% change or is that only a slight dip still?


Quote:

(Or are there years where Switzerland had a huge homicide rate that I don't know about?)
Switzerland has laws that require registration and personal signature upon the purchase of ammunition. Are you proposing that the US require that too?

Switzerland also requires a permit to purchase a weapon. According to Wikipedia that permit restricts you to 3 weapons. They do not legally allow sales of automatic weapons, only semi automatic. Do you want the same laws as Switzerland? I would be fine with them. Would you? Or does registration lead to banning like you keep claiming?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 09:38 am
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
An almost 25% reduction in murder rates in Australia since 1996 is a slight dip?


For a rate already low, yes.

And I am not convinced that the 1.3 numbers are here to stay. I think it's more likely that they went from an average of 1.7 to an average of 1.6.


So the steady downward progression and 2 years at 1.3 means it is really 1.7? Nice try oralloy.


The rate fell FROM 1.7, not "to" 1.7.

And as I said, it remains to be seen if the 1.3 numbers are here to stay.



parados wrote:
Lets all pretend that the UN wants to take your guns away too.


If by "the UN" you meant IANSA and the diplomats who are aligned with them, there is no need to pretend. All that is required is an acceptance of reality.



parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
In the same time period robberies went down too. (both armed and unarmed.) There was a spike in armed robberies the first 2 years after the law but it is now 20% less than it was prior to the law.


Looks to me like the 2005 numbers are still significantly higher than the 1993 numbers, and are higher than the 1994 and 1995 numbers.

significantly? A rather interesting use of that word. There is almost no change if a it is 25% diferent but a number that is only 13% different is significantly different?


Going from 1.7 to 1.6 strikes me as a small dip. Going from 1.7 to 1.3 is a bit more significant, but it remains to be seen if the 1.3 numbers are a trend or an anomaly.

Going from 72 to 82 strikes me as an increase of moderate significance. If the last two years were an anomaly, the increase is much higher -- 100+.



parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
Your other website is pointless since it uses many different single years from many different countries and is hardly a comparison. How can I compare 1996 in Uganda to 2002 in the USA and expect any type of reasonable comparison? Too easy to cherry pick the single year to make the point.


Has nothing to do with cherrypicking. Governments do not always release the relevant information in a timely manner.


It has everything to do with cherry picking.


No it doesn't.

If you don't like what the data says, that doesn't justify unjustly maligning a reputable website.



parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
(Or are there years where Switzerland had a huge homicide rate that I don't know about?)

Switzerland has laws that require registration and personal signature upon the purchase of ammunition. Are you proposing that the US require that too?

Switzerland also requires a permit to purchase a weapon. According to Wikipedia that permit restricts you to 3 weapons.


The permit is something like a background check is here in the US. If you pass the background check, you get the permit.

Last I knew, even that basic permit was not required for bolt-action rifles and double-barreled shotguns.

I also don't remember any limit to three weapons. Is that three per purchase permit, or three that you can own period? I'll have to check and see if they've changed their laws since last I reviewed them.



parados wrote:
They do not legally allow sales of automatic weapons, only semi automatic.


However, all members of the Swiss Militia get to keep automatic rifles in their homes.



parados wrote:
Do you want the same laws as Switzerland? I would be fine with them. Would you?


Presuming you included the militia in the package, I'd be absolutely delighted with Swiss gun laws.

We'd finally be in compliance with the Second Amendment.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 10:06 am
For the sake of argument lets use a simple 3 year moving average from the Australian numbers. You take 3 years and average them then compare the averages from year to year. It helps to eliminate anomalies.
We can also use 5 year if you want.

The 3 year average of murder rates in Australia starting with 1993-96 and ending with 2003-2005
1.7
1.7
1.666666667
1.666666667
1.633333333
1.666666667
1.6
1.6
1.566666667
1.466666667
1.366666667

The drop is "significant", a 20% drop in murder rates.

The 5 year average shows a narrow range of 1.62-1.68 before we start to see a visible drop
1.66
1.68
1.68
1.64
1.62
1.64
1.58
1.52
1.46


Give these numbers to anyone, tell them they are a 3 year and a 5 year average. Ask them if they see a trend or any difference over time. Don't tell them what it is about. I guarantee you will get the same answer. There is an obvious reduction.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 10:20 am
parados wrote:
For the sake of argument lets use a simple 3 year moving average from the Australian numbers. You take 3 years and average them then compare the averages from year to year. It helps to eliminate anomalies.
We can also use 5 year if you want.

The 3 year average of murder rates in Australia starting with 1993-96 and ending with 2003-2005
1.7
1.7
1.666666667
1.666666667
1.633333333
1.666666667
1.6
1.6
1.566666667
1.466666667
1.366666667

The drop is "significant", a 20% drop in murder rates.


I'm not sure that we are in disagreement here.

If the 1.3 rate holds, I agree that that is a moderately significant drop.

If the 1.3 rates are an anomaly and not part of a trend, then the drop is only from 1.7 to 1.6.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 10:21 am
oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
(Or are there years where Switzerland had a huge homicide rate that I don't know about?)

Switzerland has laws that require registration and personal signature upon the purchase of ammunition. Are you proposing that the US require that too?

Switzerland also requires a permit to purchase a weapon. According to Wikipedia that permit restricts you to 3 weapons.


The permit is something like a background check is here in the US. If you pass the background check, you get the permit.

Last I knew, even that basic permit was not required for bolt-action rifles and double-barreled shotguns.

I also don't remember any limit to three weapons. Is that three per purchase permit, or three that you can own period? I'll have to check and see if they've changed their laws since last I reviewed them.


As far as I can tell, each permit allows you to purchase only one weapon. But there is nothing to stop someone from going back and getting more permits if they want to buy more weapons.

I didn't see anything about a limit to three weapons.



oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:
Do you want the same laws as Switzerland? I would be fine with them. Would you?


Presuming you included the militia in the package, I'd be absolutely delighted with Swiss gun laws.

We'd finally be in compliance with the Second Amendment.


One exception. I'd want to retain our shall-issue concealed carry laws. Other than that I'd be fine with Swiss law (if the militia were included).
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 11:39 am
Quote:
parados wrote:
Lets all pretend that the UN wants to take your guns away too.


If by "the UN" you meant IANSA and the diplomats who are aligned with them, there is no need to pretend. All that is required is an acceptance of reality.


Oh. let's pretend "UN" is spelled I-A-N-S-A.

The treaty is from the UN.

IANSA is not the UN. Now we are on to diplomats aligned with IANSA? Any evidence of said alignments other than your claim? Any evidence that all the countries that signed the treaty are dupes of IANSA? I wonder if Switzerland signed it.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 11:59 am
parados wrote:
oralloy wrote:
parados wrote:

Lets all pretend that the UN wants to take your guns away too.


If by "the UN" you meant IANSA and the diplomats who are aligned with them, there is no need to pretend. All that is required is an acceptance of reality.


Oh. let's pretend "UN" is spelled I-A-N-S-A.


No.



parados wrote:
The treaty is from the UN.


I don't tie the UN directly to the gun ban plot, but if you do, then fine, the UN is trying to take guns away from civilians.



parados wrote:
IANSA is not the UN.


They are a UN NGO (specifically, the UN NGO that is promoting this treaty).



parados wrote:
Now we are on to diplomats aligned with IANSA? Any evidence of said alignments other than your claim?


The fact that the diplomats and IANSA call for and fight for the same goals isn't enough?

Why do you think it is controversial to state that "diplomats who fight for a UN treaty" and "the UN NGO that is chiefly pushing that treaty" are allied???



parados wrote:
Any evidence that all the countries that signed the treaty are dupes of IANSA?


Dupes???
0 Replies
 
JustanObserver
 
  1  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 12:46 pm
OmSigDAVID wrote:

"The meaning of the provision...is that the people ...shall have the right
to keep and bear arms
and they need no permission or regulation of law for the purpose."

The Constitution no more allows any government to control guns
than to edit the Bible or control who has one.


You quoted a supreme court justice, so it seems that's your stance.

Let me rephrase the question.

Do you feel that it would be appropriate to regulate (in one form or another, this doen't mean a total ban) gun use for any particular classes of people?

Examples:
People who have been convicted of violent felonies,
People who suffer some form of mental incapacity,
Children under a certain age,
etc.?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Mon 5 Jun, 2006 02:36 pm
JustanObserver wrote:
OmSigDAVID wrote:

"The meaning of the provision...is that the people ...shall have the right
to keep and bear arms
and they need no permission or regulation of law for the purpose."

The Constitution no more allows any government to control guns
than to edit the Bible or control who has one.


You quoted a supreme court justice, so it seems that's your stance.

Let me rephrase the question.



Quote:

Do you feel that it would be appropriate to regulate (in one form or another, this doen't mean a total ban)
gun use for any particular classes of people?

No. Discriminatory licensure of the right
to defend your life or property from violent depredation
is not appropriate.
I prefer equal protection of the law in the right of self-defense,
which results from a l'aissez faire free market in personal defensive emergency equipment.
This was the state of affairs that prevailed thru out America
until the early 20th Century,
altho there were ofen requirements of keeping guns showing openly,
called " open carry ".

I thought that the USSC put it very nicely, in the case of
PLANNED PARENTHOOD v. CASEY (1992) 112 S.Ct. 2791 (P. 28O5)
The US Supreme Court declares that:
"...by the express provisions of the FIRST EIGHT amendments to the Constitution" rights were
"guaranteed to THE INDIVIDUAL ... It is a promise of the Constitution
that there is a realm of personal liberty
which the government may not enter
." [emphasis added]
The 2nd Amendment is within "the first eight amendments".



Quote:

Examples:
People who have been convicted of violent felonies,

No.
I favor concurrent federal and state jurisdiction for
BANISHMENT of violently felonious recidivists;
i.e., loss of citizenship, and removal from the North American Continent,
with violation of the banishment prohibited on pain of death.


Quote:

People who suffer some form of mental incapacity,

If they are dangerous,
they shud be confined to mental hospitals.

If they are free to roam in the world,
they can and they will arm themselves
with whatever equipment they choose
from rocks, or their fists,
or kicking ( I 've seen them do that )
to sharp wood, metal, or glass, or knives,
or guns homemade or stolen or bought on the blackmarket,
the same as bathtub gin or marijuana.
They take cognizance of no law;
it is not part of their reality.
Legislating the conduct of the insane
is like legislating the weather.


Quote:

Children under a certain age,
etc.?

Everyone has a right to defend himself,
at any age
, altho it is impossible to exercise that right,
during the first moments of life.

It is sad that Andrea Yates' children
found no recourse to weaponry,
as she dragged them to their watery doom.

Her oldest boy ( about 7 )
ran from her when he discovered what she was doing.
He ran screaming thru the house.
Sadly, he did not come upon a gun.


The age at which a child begins to learn self-defense
and to train to use defensive emergency equipment
is uncertain and varies among individuals,
but it is not a matter for government interference.

In any case, the control of guns was put beyond the reach
of any government by the Founders of government,
knowing, as they did ( up close n personal ) of the occasional need
to remove government, as they had just finished doing.

In any future Revolution,
they wanted the citizens to WIN.
Accordingly, they did not want government
to have control of the means that the citizens wud use
to effect that removal.
( Like the I.R.A. deciding what guns the English Army cud possess )
David
0 Replies
 
 

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