zycro wrote:First off, withholding sex from her will never work. She has virtually no sex drive. I am lucky if we have sex once every two weeks. Sometimes its a month. Often I feel like she is just doing it for my benefit. It really sucks, because I have a high sex drive.
When I do what she asks she may thank me, but really I am expected to "know" these things so I dont think she really thinks she should thank me for something I am "suppossed to know" anyway.
I like the idea of requesting a written list. It will be a long one with daily updates!
Also, great suggestion about ignoring her until she agrees to ask nicely. Thats all I am really looking for.
We are in counselling. Thats where I heard about the delivery of the message being the most important and the content mostly secondary. Time for another appointment for sure.
Yesterday she called me at work to complain that the UPS guy came to our place. I am not allowed to have any more deliveries because she finds it annoying.
Honestly I dont know how much more I can take. Its getting to the point where I am hypersensitive to the nagging where as soon as I hear that tone of voice I cringe.
sorry for the late reply... she nags AND has no sex drive? Are you crazy? Dump her.
Late response, but I am so very understanding of the predicament you describe, in my relationship experience. I was often the bickering, complaining, martyr. My childhood was so weird that my skills at communicating simply did not exist. And anyone could treat me any way they chose and I did not know how to fight back. Not to fight back literally NOR verbally. But I found there is much wisdom in silence or in
a simple: "I can see that you're angry and you're upset. Let's sit down
and talk about it. " You are honestly not nearly powerful enough to MAKE her angry and upset, (or create any of her other feelings for that matter, happiness is an inside job) but she seems to have her own difficulty with dealing with some issues in her life, and fortunately AND unfortunately, as the spouse, you are the person who is the most beloved and the most trusted .... and so YOU are granted the gift of being permitted to see her at her worst, seeing not only the greatest beauty of those we love, but also all of their imperfections, pecadillos, weird habits, fears, & neuroses.
(And they have all the goods on us too.) Who else can she feel safe with or trust enough to blurt out her rage that she may not understand herself. It is her love and her trust in you that allows her to show her ugliest side to you as well as her beauty; and seeking for the REAL reason for what causes her unhappiness is honestly HER problem, but because you love her you want to do what you can, even if it is very little. Often the tiniest change of behavior in a relationship sets off a chain of events that can revolutionize that relationship. If one partner quits smoking, or you start taking evening walks together every evening after dinner. Sure, if you're a slob, you can work on it, but I don't think for one solitary second that is all that there is going on with your wife. And the truest pain of it all - lies in you believing that she really is made unhappy & angry by you. So take heart. Often a simple "Yes ... I hear what you are saying. I hear you saying are angry, unhappy and hurting. What is it that is hurting you, frightening you, causing you so much anger? What can I do to help you?" does wonders in opening up those clogged lines of communication. In my years of humble experience, my anger is only the mask I wear to cover my fear. Getting to the real issue, whatever it is - this great fear of hers - may take patience and time and talking it out. Or may take some counseling or a class in learning how to listen for partners, spouses - to truly listen to your partner's heart crying out. I am willing to bet you $100 that when she is berating , tirading, complaining about this and that, that she is never once actually willing, nor able to LOOK YOU IN THE EYES. That is what we must do when we speak to each other. I guess you could gently treat her as one treats an autistic child, gently touching her chin, looking at her and asking her "Look in my eyes when you speak to me please, just look in my eyes. I DO WANT to understand what's upsetting you." This alone will often bring me to tears and break a cycle of fear and pain. Or being asked; "Babs what is it that is hurting you so?" For all it's difficulty, the relationship of a lifetime is one of the most difficult tasks of all (second ONLY to raising children) and also one of the most rewarding. As my dear friend Mary taught me, I learned that I need to look at relationships as I would a number line, as so:
[ PAIN -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 - 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 JOY ]
We are only able to achieve the highest number on the joy (+) side that we are willing to risk the experience of being hurt)(-) of the greatest pain or grief. If I am so afraid of being hurt that I am only willing to go to a -1 on the PAIN side, then the farthest that I shall ever be able to go on the JOY side is a +1. This helped me put many things into a new perspective. I WANTED to go the distance and so I have. And like Robert Frost wrote in The Road Less Traveled,
"And it has made ALL the difference." And so it has.
babsatamelia wrote:Late response, but I am so very understanding of the predicament you describe, in my relationship experience. I was often the bickering, complaining, martyr. My childhood was so weird that my skills at communicating simply did not exist. And anyone could treat me any way they chose and I did not know how to fight back. Not to fight back literally NOR verbally. But I found there is much wisdom in silence or in
a simple: "I can see that you're angry and you're upset. Let's sit down
and talk about it. " You are honestly not nearly powerful enough to MAKE her angry and upset, (or create any of her other feelings for that matter, happiness is an inside job) but she seems to have her own difficulty with dealing with some issues in her life, and fortunately AND unfortunately, as the spouse, you are the person who is the most beloved and the most trusted .... and so YOU are granted the gift of being permitted to see her at her worst, seeing not only the greatest beauty of those we love, but also all of their imperfections, pecadillos, weird habits, fears, & neuroses.
(And they have all the goods on us too.) Who else can she feel safe with or trust enough to blurt out her rage that she may not understand herself. It is her love and her trust in you that allows her to show her ugliest side to you as well as her beauty; and seeking for the REAL reason for what causes her unhappiness is honestly HER problem, but because you love her you want to do what you can, even if it is very little. Often the tiniest change of behavior in a relationship sets off a chain of events that can revolutionize that relationship. If one partner quits smoking, or you start taking evening walks together every evening after dinner. Sure, if you're a slob, you can work on it, but I don't think for one solitary second that is all that there is going on with your wife. And the truest pain of it all - lies in you believing that she really is made unhappy & angry by you. So take heart. Often a simple "Yes ... I hear what you are saying. I hear you saying are angry, unhappy and hurting. What is it that is hurting you, frightening you, causing you so much anger? What can I do to help you?" does wonders in opening up those clogged lines of communication. In my years of humble experience, my anger is only the mask I wear to cover my fear. Getting to the real issue, whatever it is - this great fear of hers - may take patience and time and talking it out. Or may take some counseling or a class in learning how to listen for partners, spouses - to truly listen to your partner's heart crying out. I am willing to bet you $100 that when she is berating , tirading, complaining about this and that, that she is never once actually willing, nor able to LOOK YOU IN THE EYES. That is what we must do when we speak to each other. I guess you could gently treat her as one treats an autistic child, gently touching her chin, looking at her and asking her "Look in my eyes when you speak to me please, just look in my eyes. I DO WANT to understand what's upsetting you." This alone will often bring me to tears and break a cycle of fear and pain. Or being asked; "Babs what is it that is hurting you so?" For all it's difficulty, the relationship of a lifetime is one of the most difficult tasks of all (second ONLY to raising children) and also one of the most rewarding. As my dear friend Mary taught me, I learned that I need to look at relationships as I would a number line, as so:
[ PAIN -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 - 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 JOY ]
We are only able to achieve the highest number on the joy (+) side that we are willing to risk the experience of being hurt)(-) of the greatest pain or grief. If I am so afraid of being hurt that I am only willing to go to a -1 on the PAIN side, then the farthest that I shall ever be able to go on the JOY side is a +1. This helped me put many things into a new perspective. I WANTED to go the distance and so I have. And like Robert Frost wrote in The Road Less Traveled,
"And it has made ALL the difference." And so it has.
alot of this is very true. all except that she has no problem looking at me in the eyes while nagging me. but anyway great advice. going to have to digest it for awhile.
we had two good days in a row last week. i thanked her for making a strong effort to be pleasant. her response was that she was biting her tongue. my response was that hmm.. maybe thats what you need to do more often. her response was yeah but then my needs wont be met. after asking her what she meant by that comment her response was that I was going out too much. i had a two hour band practice on wednesday, then i had to return a recording unit that i rented on thursday. that took 1.5hrs to drive there and back and deal with the paperwork. then i had made plans to see a movie with a friend on friday. this was upsetting her so i said i will just stay home then. maybe see a movie next week. she said just go. i felt she was "just saying that" so i asked her a couple more times to make sure it was okay. then she accused me of nagging her. she said that even if you ask nicely its still nagging. i disagree. for it to be nagging there has to be that whiney, complaining tone of voice otherwise its just making a request.
anyways...
we have a counselling appointment this tuesday.
A relationship is like 2 trees (as in an ancient poem from Kahlil Gibran)
If they stand too close together, they block each other's need for
nutrients and sunlight.
It seems to be a very fine line between togetherness and individuality.
Your wife needs to GET A LIFE. You have one, and don't give it up,
for it will only make you bitter. She needs to learn how to make friends
do some independent hobbies or things apart from you. Then she will
not be so jealous and resent you so much AND the two of you, when
you DO reconnect, can share with each other what you have each
experienced in your individual lives. Too much closeness is not good.
Too much distance is not good. I know what she does may make you
WANT to be away from her - but try to keep an even balance of the
time you spend with her, or make specific plans for the 2 of you to
go out to dinner and a movie in between all your other independent
activities. But most of all, encourage her to "GET A LIFE" even tho
you can't say that exactly, she needs individual activities and friends
with whom she keeps her individuality - you keep yours, then you
come together and share your lives in joy. She wants you to make
her happy and you can't!! She simply must learn it's an inside job.
From the sounds of it my friend, she just needs a little help nudging
her toward expressing herself, photography, painting, music, garage
sales, friends, whatever makes her happy. If she is the shy type,
oh well, we ALL have to get over that. My daughter used to do this
very same thing to her husband, but I told her she needed to get a
life. She was jealous of him, and suspecting he cheats on her. But
she had no fun activities of her own. All that's changed so now they
fight about other things LOL. Ain't love grand.
