Retired Generals finally calling for Rumsfeld resignation

snood wrote:

you did say "I hate the military".

With every fibre of my being! Being disabled ones entire adult life because of a bunch of bullshit and lies just has a way of doing that for you! Watching 5 of my group get literally blown to bits was a real soul crusher. You haven't lived until you've dug your way out of body parts that were attached to your friends a few moments before. Bottom line, we were hit by our own army because we were in VietNam to help investigate graft and theft within our Quartermaster Corp. The fine military folk were stealing all kinds of **** that was dealt in the black market. Some of the ordinance was used against our own troops, but hey, WTF, they were making good money so why not!!

So spare me the rah rah Snood, I've already heard it! If you want to buy that fine horseshit, you help yourself!

Boomer also made quite a point when she mentioned that the military votes Republican because they know they'll get more from the Republicans. Never mind that the party lies us into illegal, unjust wars, lives on hate and bigotry, spurns stem cell research which is tomorrows medicine, steals from the taxpayer to give to it's "investors", steals the freedoms we all hold dear, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on ... Talk about selfish and self-centered. Screw the country, vote Republican, they will give us more perks!

Yea, they're moral giants!!

Anon

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Anon-Voter wrote:

snood wrote:
you did say "I hate the military".

With every fibre of my being! Being disabled ones entire adult life because of a bunch of bullshit and lies just has a way of doing that for you! Watching 5 of my group get literally blown to bits was a real soul crusher. You haven't lived until you've dug your way out of body parts that were attached to your friends a few moments before. Bottom line, we were hit by our own army because we were in VietNam to help investigate graft and theft within our Quartermaster Corp. The fine military folk were stealing all kinds of **** that was dealt in the black market. Some of the ordinance was used against our own troops, but hey, WTF, they were making good money so why not!!

So spare me the rah rah Snood, I've already heard it! If you want to buy that fine horseshit, you help yourself!

Boomer also made quite a point when she mentioned that the military votes Republican because they know they'll get more from the Republicans. Never mind that the party lies us into illegal, unjust wars, lives on hate and bigotry, spurns stem cell research which is tomorrows medicine, steals from the taxpayer to give to it's "investors", steals the freedoms we all hold dear, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on ... Talk about selfish and self-centered. Screw the country, vote Republican, they will give us more perks!

Yea, they're moral giants!!

Anon

I'll spare you the rah-rah if you spare me the self-pitying rants. Whether you admit it or not, the military is a necessary evil in this world. I am no fan of this present war, but as long as there are men, there will be war.

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Anon
I hear what you're saying and I can only imagine what you've gone through, and are still going through, but I have to agree with Snood in saying that we need the military.
There are good and bad people everywhere, including in the military.
My uncle was killed in WW2 by "so called friendly fire", so I'm not a big fan of war either.
If we are ever attacked and we needed to go to war to protect our country and the people in it, then I see reason to go war.
Not like Bush's poor ass excuses for his war, but those times when there is no other choice.
There are a lot of evil, creepy people on this planet and the thought of relying on our local city cops to protect us would be a scary thought.
Anyway, there are some bad people in the military, just like everywhere else, but we can't judge the whole military based on what the A$$holes do.
I have a neighbor who's an ass, but should I be labeled as an ass as well, just because I live in his neighborhood?
Again Anon, I hear ya, but there are A$$holes everywhere.

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snood wrote:

as long as there are men, there will be war.

I said these exact words to my mother yesterday Shocked

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Quote:

Rumsfeld May Be Permanently Tainted by War in Iraq (Update3)

April 17 (Bloomberg) -- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld will be permanently damaged by failed U.S. planning for the aftermath of the Iraq invasion even if he survives calls for his resignation from seven former military commanders, defense analysts said.

The retired generals, who made their views public in interviews and essays over the past month, are adding to criticism from Democrats and some Republicans over what they say was Rumsfeld's failure to anticipate the instability in Iraq after Saddam Hussein's regime was toppled three years ago.

Rumsfeld's ability to achieve his broader goals at the Pentagon, such as completing the transformation of the U.S. military from the Cold War period to the post-Sept. 11 era, will be compromised by the damage Iraq has done to his reputation, according to Loren Thompson, an analyst with the Lexington Institute in Arlington, Virginia, and other military experts.

continued...

We will ALL be permanently tainted by the war in Iraq.

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Before the invasion of Iraq started I said in another forum:
.
It will be easy for the US forces to overrun Iraq. It will be a nighmare to occupy it after the war.
.
I am glad I saw it coming. Bush and Rumsfeld never gave it a thought. They were busy swaggering and boasting.

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First paragraph from today's editorial from The Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/17/AR2006041701261_pf.html

"The Generals' Revolt
There are many reasons for Donald Rumsfeld to leave. Finger-pointing by retired officers shouldn't be one.

Tuesday, April 18, 2006; A18

PRESIDENT BUSH'S stubborn support for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld has compounded U.S. troubles in Iraq, prevented a remedy for the criminal mistreatment of foreign detainees and worsened relations with a host of allies. Now it is deepening the domestic political hole in which the president is mired. Half a dozen senior retired generals have publicly criticized Mr. Rumsfeld, touching off another damaging and distracting controversy at a critical moment in the war. Thanks in part to his previous misjudgments, Mr. Bush has no easy way out"

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"As a political matter, Rumsfeld's leaving at this moment, under this kind of fire, would play as an admission that the critics who say the Iraq war was fundamentally botched have been right all along. The White House realizes this, which is one reason President Bush made such a strong statement in support of Rumsfeld on Friday."

washingtonpost

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Some people say there are 40,000 Irani citizens out gathering flowers to be used in welcoming a US invasion. Probably will be a slam-dunk.

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I stop getting email notifications and this discussion takes off as a house afire.

I would have liked to interject comments here and there, but it is really to late now. They reference material too far back, even though it was only a day ago.

But without substantiation:

1. I think Walter's observation of how the military
personnel fit in with civilian activities in Germany is a more
realistic portrait of how the real world operates,
or should operate.

2. I do think that military personnel, and their
families are considerably more conservative,
thus Republican, in their views. Including in
all social areas and values.

3. I believe that the female general at Abu Grav
(spelling) was BOTH scape-goated and
punished. I think it entirely possible that
certain behaviors took place there without
her knowledge. I believe it plausible that
certain personnel and chains of command
in the prison acted independently of her
authority. I believe that the Commander
in Chief in that situation was Rumseld and
his associates.
4. And McMaster? If he is still active, I bet
he is under an extremely short leash, if
not outright threats of prosecution for the
book.

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General Miller was the specialist from Gitmo, sent to Iraq to tighten the screws a little.
....................................
The person in charge of those "fine young men and women" was Maj.-Gen. Geoffrey Miller. Last August, Miller was sent to Baghdad with orders, in the words of one senior officer, to "Gitmo-ize" Iraq. Insurgent attacks are becoming more frequent and deadly, and the pressure is on to get better intelligence from prisoners. At Abu Ghraib and other prisons, Miller extends the same stress and duress techniques used at Guantanamo. Military police are ordered to soften up prisoners before army intelligence interrogates them.
.
Unlike the prisoners at Guantanamo, though, Iraqi captives are protected by the Geneva Conventions, in theory at least. In practice, according to human rights groups, those protections were widely ignored. Alexandra Ariaga says her organization, Amnesty International, found evidence of these violations.
.
"Severe sleep deprivation, sometimes withholding of food or medicine that was life threatening, hoodings, of which we've seen photographs now, that were used to intimidate and to manipulate mentally the prisoners, and then beatings, severe beatings, handcuffs very tightly held and forcing people to stay in very uncomfortable positions for long periods of time," Ariaga says. "Beatings and the handcuffs and the uncomfortable positions were severe enough to leave marks on people's bodies, even a month after they'd been released."
...........
But will that happen? It's been widely noted that the officer who's just been ordered to clean up the prison system in Iraq is none other than Geoffrey Miller, the same major-general who Gitmo-ized the system in the first place.
.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/iraq/abughraib_halton.html

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Hagel: I've lost confidence in Rumsfeld
BY DON WALTON / Lincoln Journal Star

Sen. Chuck Hagel said Monday he shares the lack of confidence in Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld separately voiced by six retired generals.

"The concern I've had is, at a very dangerous time, (the) secretary of defense does not command the respect and confidence of our men and women in uniform," Hagel said.

"There is a real question about his capacity to lead at this critical time," he said.

"I have had many conversations with military leaders about their concern about what's happening at the Pentagon and with our force structure."

Hagel first expressed lack of confidence in Rumsfeld a year ago.

Concerns expressed by the six generals, four of whom served under Rumsfeld, should be taken seriously, the Nebraska Republican said.

Hagel was questioned about the issue during a conference call from Washington in which he briefed reporters about his trip last week to India and Pakistan.

The public criticisms voiced by the generals probably are unprecedented in modern times, Hagel said.

Hagel, who warned against a precipitate U.S. military attack on Iraq without broad international support and careful planning for the aftermath, said President Bush "needs to make the call" about Rumsfeld.

Responding to criticism from the generals, Bush has expressed his continued confidence in his defense secretary.

"The president has that responsibility," Hagel said. "He's not asked for my advice on Iraq."

On another issue, Hagel said he believes the Senate will provide the 60 votes required to end debate and approve a comprehensive immigration reform bill after considering a number of amendments.

Hagel is co-author of a compromise proposal dealing with illegal immigrant workers already living in the United States. Under his plan, most of the estimated 11 million illegal workers could earn their way to legal status.

Senate consideration of a number of amendments should precede a vote for cloture ending debate, Hagel said.

"Let everybody be heard, and then let's fix the problem," he said.

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Quote:

The public criticisms voiced by the generals probably are unprecedented in modern times, Hagel said.

I recall that Powell broke with Clinton about the gays in the military issue.

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blueflame,

Do you know when that article (issue) was published?

I liked this quote:

"Is incompetence an impeachable offense? The question is another reason to defer the fraught matter of impeachment (if deserved) in the Bush era until the ground is prepared by a proper fact-finding investigation and public hearings conducted by a sober, distinguished committee of Congress."

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snood wrote:

Anon-Voter wrote:
snood wrote:
you did say "I hate the military".

With every fibre of my being! Being disabled ones entire adult life because of a bunch of bullshit and lies just has a way of doing that for you! Watching 5 of my group get literally blown to bits was a real soul crusher. You haven't lived until you've dug your way out of body parts that were attached to your friends a few moments before. Bottom line, we were hit by our own army because we were in VietNam to help investigate graft and theft within our Quartermaster Corp. The fine military folk were stealing all kinds of **** that was dealt in the black market. Some of the ordinance was used against our own troops, but hey, WTF, they were making good money so why not!!

So spare me the rah rah Snood, I've already heard it! If you want to buy that fine horseshit, you help yourself!

Boomer also made quite a point when she mentioned that the military votes Republican because they know they'll get more from the Republicans. Never mind that the party lies us into illegal, unjust wars, lives on hate and bigotry, spurns stem cell research which is tomorrows medicine, steals from the taxpayer to give to it's "investors", steals the freedoms we all hold dear, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on ... Talk about selfish and self-centered. Screw the country, vote Republican, they will give us more perks!

Yea, they're moral giants!!

Anon

I'll spare you the rah-rah if you spare me the self-pitying rants. Whether you admit it or not, the military is a necessary evil in this world. I am no fan of this present war, but as long as there are men, there will be war.

Self-pitying rants? No, you wanted an explanation. I gave it to you. But thanks for letting me know what you think of my sacrifice for my country. Now I know precisely how to feel about the soldiers coming back from Iraq that come back in pieces, or totaly mentally fubared so they can't function in society. The estimate is that 20% come back in dire mental straights. I'll rmember what you've said to me when it comes time to open the wallet for them.

Anon

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Montana wrote:

Anon
I hear what you're saying and I can only imagine what you've gone through, and are still going through, but I have to agree with Snood in saying that we need the military.

Indeed ... to protect us ... not engage in military adventures for the benefit of the rich.

Montana wrote:

There are good and bad people everywhere, including in the military.
My uncle was killed in WW2 by "so called friendly fire", so I'm not a big fan of war either.
If we are ever attacked and we needed to go to war to protect our country and the people in it, then I see reason to go war.

I agree, I would be the first to do so!

Montana wrote:

Not like Bush's poor ass excuses for his war, but those times when there is no other choice.

We haven't been in a position that there was no other choice since WWII. I don't know that much about the Korean war, so I have to defer on that until I really look at it. But for the rest, it's all been bullshit and lies ... for the last 50 years!!

Montana wrote:

There are a lot of evil, creepy people on this planet and the thought of relying on our local city cops to protect us would be a scary thought.
Anyway, there are some bad people in the military, just like everywhere else, but we can't judge the whole military based on what the A$$holes do.
I have a neighbor who's an ass, but should I be labeled as an ass as well, just because I live in his neighborhood?
Again Anon, I hear ya, but there are A$$holes everywhere.

As long as soldiers are "just following orders", and obey any order because thay have to, I will hate the military. There should be a legal point where a soldier can stand up and say "Get Stuffed", but there isn't. Don't misconstrue my hatred of the military for the people in it, as I have great compassion for those that come home and are carryijng the marks of war whether they are physical or mental. I think a large part pf the existing military probably are people I'd rather not have in my house, but that doesn't mean I hate them. I hate the structure of the military, and the ability for them to do whatever they want whether it is legal, moral, or not.

"I was just following orders" just reminds me too much of Nazi Germany!!

Anon

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detano inipo wrote:

Before the invasion of Iraq started I said in another forum:
.
It will be easy for the US forces to overrun Iraq. It will be a nighmare to occupy it after the war.
.
I am glad I saw it coming. Bush and Rumsfeld never gave it a thought. They were busy swaggering and boasting.

MANY of us said this, nationwide. According to the war mongers, we were being "anti-American" and "traitors" ... remember ???

Anon

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freedom4free wrote:

"As a political matter, Rumsfeld's leaving at this moment, under this kind of fire, would play as an admission that the critics who say the Iraq war was fundamentally botched have been right all along. The White House realizes this, which is one reason President Bush made such a strong statement in support of Rumsfeld on Friday."

washingtonpost

I think you've got this one nailed!

Anon

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sumac wrote:

blueflame,

Do you know when that article (issue) was published?

I liked this quote:

"Is incompetence an impeachable offense? The question is another reason to defer the fraught matter of impeachment (if deserved) in the Bush era until the ground is prepared by a proper fact-finding investigation and public hearings conducted by a sober, distinguished committee of Congress."

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/articles/060417fege08

Based on the URL, I'd say it was posted yesterday (06/04/17).

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Retired Generals finally calling for Rumsfeld resignation

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