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Iran Air Strikes Growing in Probability

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 May, 2006 12:38 pm
No, that series of exchanges had not yet deteriorated in to a flame war. As for your contention that the use of the term strawman is a stretch, though, i assert that you've let a partisan point of view distort your analysis.

MM's questions are loaded--the first inherently posits that "the left" liked CNN for broadcasting negative stories about Bush. It's like the "have you stopped beating your wife" question. No matter how you answer, you accept the basic inherent proposition. So, no matter how one answers that question, one accepts the contention that CNN willfully broadcasts negative stories about Bush. The possibility does exist, Ash, that a story about Bush broadcast by CNN may only appear to be negative to one with a partisan point of view. It is equally possible that CNN has broadcast a story about Bush which appears negative because Bush has done, or is alleged by someone other than CNN to have done, something reprehensible. The strawmen implicit in the question is that CNN willfully broadcasts stories about Bush which are negative (no support is provided by MM on this point) and that "the left" praises CNN for broadcasting such stories, simply because they are negative stories about Bush (no support is provided by MM on this point).

The next question starts out by stating that MM's interlocutor "opposes" CNN, Fox and all of the major papers, Reuters and every other major news source, and then finishes with a clause in the form of a question. Once again, this is a loaded question as MM has provided no evidence that any part of the opening clause is factually true. It constitutes a strawman because of the assumptions about what his interlocutor does or does not "oppose." A strawman does not necessarily have to be an analogy--it can take the form of petitio principi statements for which no evidence has been provided. Attempting to answer such questions implicitly entails accepting the a priori assumptions--the charges against MM's interlocutor--and therefore leaves the respondant fighting a strawman.

Finally, MM asserts that if someone trusts a particular source, one must necessarily trust all reports coming from that source. This is neither logically established, nor established on an evidentiary basis.

The Nizkor Project wrote:
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.


The Fallacy Files wrote:


Wikipedia wrote:
A straw man argument is a rhetorical technique based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact misleading, since the argument actually presented by the opponent has not been refuted.


Skepdic-dot-com wrote:
One of the characteristics of a cogent refutation of an argument is that the argument one is refuting be represented fairly and accurately. To distort or misrepresent an argument one is trying to refute is called the straw man fallacy. It doesn't matter whether the misrepresentation or distortion is accidental and due to misunderstanding the argument or is intentional and aimed at making it easier to refute. Either way, one commits the straw man fallacy.


Cuyamaca-dot-net wrote:
The argument misrepresents a position that it seeks to refute. By refuting the position as misrepresented, the argument creates the impression that it has refuted the position that is actually held by opponents.

Comments:

One version of the Straw Man fallacy is to impute a "hidden agenda" to an opponent.


None of the definitions at these sources (the first five appearing in a Google search) matches that which you have presented, which i submit was constructed to support your point. The last of these is of particular interest because it seems to me that MM has posited a hidden agenda for F4F of demonizing Bush. Now, in point of fact, i consider this to be true, based on my experience of F4F's "contributions" at this site. In fact, i have consistently posted that F4F's sources are often suspect, and have accused him of anti-semitism elsewhere. The member F4F is neither a friend of mine, nor anyone for whom i hold a brief to provide a defense. But i also do not entertain a high opinion of MM's rhetorical skills. This type of post on his part is common. None of the imputations which he has levelled against F4F are proven, and i consider them all to be strawmen, and in particular the last--which seeks to suggest that if we knew F4F's preferred source for news we could find examples of positions which a conservative would support, and with which F4F preforce must agree--is the most egregious example.

Your serve.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 May, 2006 12:50 pm
BernardR wrote:
I am afraid you are correct, InfraBlue. All that Admadinejad wants is for "Israel to be wiped out from the map of the world". That's all. It would probably be a peaceful thing. The Jewish state would be removed--to somewhere in the interior of Australia, perhaps? and, according to the article, insisted that a new series of attacks will destroy the Jewish state.


How stupid of me to think that Admadinejad had negative feelings about Isreal-

Quote below from CNN

Iranian leader: Wipe out Israel
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Iran's new president has repeated a remark from a former ayatollah that Israel should be "wiped out from the map," insisting that a new series of attacks will destroy the Jewish state, and lashing out at Muslim countries and leaders that acknowledge Israel.

The remarks by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad -- reported by Islamic Republic News Agency -- coincide with a month-long protest against Israel called "World without Zionism" and with the approach of Jerusalem Day.

World without Zionism is a nationwide event the planners intend to hold annually, and Ahmadinejad made the remarks during a meeting with protesting students at the Interior Ministry.

Ahmadinejad quoted a remark from Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini, the founder of Iran's Islamic revolution, who said that Israel "must be wiped out from the map of the world."


As revel has pointed out, Admadinejad has been misquoted in the line you provide, "Israel to be wiped out from the map of the world." He is talking about the removal of the regime, the governmental powers that be. In his analogy with the regime of the Shah in Iran he most certainly did not mean that the state of Iran was removed to somewhere in the interior of Australia or some other place. That is ridiculous. What was removed was the regime, the government, of the Shah. He proposes the same for the Zionist regime.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 May, 2006 12:54 pm
Setanta

Quote:
The member F4F is neither a friend of mine...


Thanks Setanta Sad It's nice to feel wanted here. Laughing
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 03:22 am
OH, I see.The removal of the regime. And what will replace that regime?
Iran leader urges destruction of 'cancerous' Israel
December 15, 2000
Web posted at: 6:33 AM EST (1133 GMT)


TEHRAN, Iran (Reuters) -- Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called on Friday for the destruction of Israel, describing it as a "cancerous tumor" in the Middle East.

"Iran's stance has always been clear on this ugly phenomenon (Israel). We have repeatedly said that this cancerous tumor of a state should be removed from the region," Khamenei told thousands of Muslim worshippers in Tehran.

"The Palestinian issue is not an internal Israeli matter. It involves the interests of the whole Islamic world, including Iran. All should strive to return that piece of land to Islamic hands."

Khamenei offered an alternative solution which he said might be more "internationally acceptable":

"Palestinian refugees should return and Muslims, Christians and Jews could choose a government for themselves, excluding immigrant Jews.

"No one will allow a bunch of thugs, lechers and outcasts from London, America and Moscow to rule over the Palestinians," the ayatollah said in remarks broadcast on state radio.

He praised the 11-week Palestinian uprising against Israel, in which more than 320 people have been killed, mainly Palestinians.

"The new Palestinian generation has learned that struggle is the way to victory, not negotiations," Khamenei said, referring to the deadlocked U.S.-sponsored Middle East peace process.

Copyright 2000 Reuters. All rights
******************************************************

Religion rules in Iran. It is clear that not only the "regime" should be changed according to the Ayatollah but, as is stated in the body of the report- "immigrant jews should be excluded".

I wonder if the Iranian thugs have some of the ovens in World War II. That would get rid of those "immigrant Jews, all right!!
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 05:11 am
Extremist Muslim leaders have made those kinds of statements and their followers have fallen for it, I agree. However, I don't believe that reacting in a like manner solves the problem counteracting extremism. It seems to me it only makes it worse and causes those who would fight against those ideas to form alliances against a common enemy (us). We have seen the example of that happening when we invaded Iraq and we are already seeing it happening as a result of all the rhetoric that is being mouthed off now regarding Iran.

Joseph Cirincione Carnegie Endowment

Quote:
I pointed out that a military strike would be disastrous for the United States. It would rally the Iranian public around an otherwise unpopular regime, inflame anti-American anger around the Muslim world, and jeopardize the already fragile U.S. position in Iraq. And it would accelerate, not delay, the Iranian nuclear program. Hard-liners in Tehran would be proven right in their claim that the only thing that can deter the United States is a nuclear bomb. Iranian leaders could respond with a crash nuclear program that could produce a bomb in a few years.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 06:44 am
Hear, hear, Revel.

However, this has all been pointed out in this thread and others already. There are, apparently, quite a few people who are not listening.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 May, 2006 06:47 pm
EU Prepared to Back Civilian Iran Program
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/051506S.shtml
The European Union will support an Iranian nuclear program that cannot be put to military use and will boost political and economic cooperation if Tehran accepts international oversight. EU foreign ministers meeting Monday considered a package of enhanced incentives to induce Tehran to stop uranium enrichment.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 01:22 am
HAs everyone missed the comment by the Ayatollah? "Immigrant Jews should be excluded"?

*********************************************************
Religion rules in Iran. It is clear that not only the "regime" should be changed according to the Ayatollah but, as is stated in the body of the report- "immigrant jews should be excluded".

I wonder if the Iranian thugs have some of the ovens in World War II. That would get rid of those "immigrant Jews, all right!!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 May, 2006 03:22 am
InfraBlue wrote:
BernardR wrote:
Steve- Please be so good as to quote any American Jews who say that Isreal should be destroyed with a nuclear weapon. I would also appreciate it if you would show the number of Jews who believe that.

Every group has its kooks. There are even some Roman Catholics who believe that the "fiction" in the DaVinci book is true.

Again, A country of more than 70,000,000 people(Iran) has declared that Israel must be destroyed. You trivialize the threat when you post nonsense.


I don't know anyone who has said that Israel should be destroyed with a nuclear weapon, American Jewish or otherwise. You can probably come up with some inbred neo-nazi voicing some inanities along those lines, but who cares what he thinks? Your challenge is a straw man, as well as a red herring, and it is nonsense.

As for your claim that "A country of more than 70,000,000 people(Iran) has declared that Israel must be destroyed," what is your reference? There is evidence that much of what the Iran president has said has been mistranslated in the Western media. From what I've read he says that the Zionist regime, the occupying regime emplaced by the world oppressor, the US, must be eliminated in much the same way that the hostile regime, that of the Shah's, emplaced by the selfsame world oppressor was eliminated from Iran. Certainly, Ahmadinejad isn't saying that Iran was destroyed, he is saying that the hostile regime was removed. He believes that the Zionist regime must be removed also. He doesn't say that "Israel must be destroyed."
Quite. Ahmadinejad was refering to the nuclear armed Zionist regime which is hostile to Iran. He was not suggesting that the geographical area which is currently known as Israel should be wiped out by nuclear attack, and certainly not proposing a second holocaust of those of the Jewish religion.

You are right of course Bernard, every group does indeed have its "kooks" including some in the virtual community of A2K.
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 May, 2006 11:27 pm
I must admit I am astonished.

Steve says that Ahmadinejad was referring to the "Nuclear Armed Zionist Regime" BUT NOT to the "geographical area known as Israel"

Please, sir, is the Nuclear Armed Zionist Regime" a real thing?Does it have Nuclear Weapons? If so, where are the nuclear weapons of this "Nuclear Armed Zionist Regime" located?

In the land of OZ???
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 01:48 am
I read Amos Oz, a very fine writer, last heard of living in...... :wink:
0 Replies
 
BernardR
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 May, 2006 09:43 am
Yes, certainly, but Amos is not the "Wizard of Oz" and Amos never met Dorothy.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 May, 2006 01:57 am
Forgive my levity, Bernard, please. I will read back in this interesting thread, which I have neglected of late, try to catch up, and see if I can't learn some more.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 05:20 am
From USA Today.

Quote:
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 07:12 am
When I first started hearing rumors of striking Iran I thought, "surely not." I have to admit that the longer this goes on the more I am thinking it is already going to happen. I think Iran thinks so too.

Iran Requests Direct Talks on Nuclear Program

Quote:
TEHRAN, May 23 -- Iran has followed President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's recent letter to President Bush with explicit requests for direct talks on its nuclear program, according to U.S. officials, Iranian analysts and foreign diplomats.

The eagerness for talks demonstrates a profound change in Iran's political orthodoxy, emphatically erasing a taboo against contact with Washington that has both defined and confined Tehran's public foreign policy for more than a quarter-century, they said.

Though the Tehran government in the past has routinely jailed its citizens on charges of contact with the country it calls the "Great Satan," Ahmadinejad's May 8 letter was implicitly endorsed by Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and lavished with praise by perhaps the most conservative ayatollah in the theocratic government.

"You know, two months ago nobody would believe that Mr. Khamenei and Mr. Ahmadinejad together would be trying to get George W. Bush to begin negotiations," said Saeed Laylaz, a former government official and prominent analyst in Tehran. "This is a sign of changing strategy. They realize the situation is dangerous and they should not waste time, that they should reach out."
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 11:10 am
House Democrats begin hearings, write Bush on Iran

RAW STORY
Published: Wednesday May 24, 2006


Print This | Email This


As concerns build over increased tensions between the United States and Iran, some Democrats in Congress are beginning to mount opposition to a preemptive nuclear strike, RAW STORY has learned.

Members of the House Democrats' Progressive Caucus are holding unofficial hearings and gathering signatures for a letter to President Bush, in hopes, they say, of attenuating the risk of nuclear confrontation.

The first unofficial meeting of Congress on the subject of a possible war with Iran is set to take place later this afternoon in the U.S. Capitol. At 3:00 pm, a group of Democratic Representatives plan to hold a hearing probing the question: "Would war with Iran help or hurt U.S. national security?"

Testifying before lawmakers will be Samantha Power, Former Executive Director of the Carr Center for Human Rights at Harvard University, and Dr. Jessica Tuchman Matthews, President of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Both speakers are also authors of books relating to U.S. foreign policy.

The 62-member caucus, co-chaired by Reps. Barbara Lee (D-CA) and Lynn Woolsey (D-CA), plans to continue holding ad hoc hearings and public forums to examine the potential effects of a war with Iran. Also on the table will be the broader question of preemptive warfare as a national security strategy.

Representatives Peter DeFazio (D-OR) and Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) are also reportedly taking part in the proceedings.

"War with Iran is not inevitable if the United States is ready to lead the way with honest, patient negotiations," Kucinich said yesterday on the House floor, "However, this Administration seems intent on war."

Meanwhile, caucus member Ed Markey (D-MA) is gathering signatures for a letter to President Bush, asking for a change in rhetoric on the subject of Iran.

Markey's letter raises concern about remarks made by Bush on April 18, indicating he might be willing to launch a nuclear strike on the nation. If done before Iran obtained nuclear weapons, this would be in violation of a pledge made in a 1995 U.S. statement, and U.S. commitments to the U.N Security Council. The Congressman is asking President Bush to make it clear that the U.S. does not currently intend to launch a preemptive nuclear strike on Iran.

Markey's letter, as circulated to others in Congress, reads as follows:

May __, 2006 The Honorable George W. Bush President The White House 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20500

Dear Mr. President:

We are writing to express our concerns about your recent suggestion that the U.S. would potentially launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack against Iran. As you will recall, on April 18, 2006, you were asked "Sir, when you talk about Iran and you talk about how you have diplomatic efforts, you also say all options are on the table. Does that include the possibility of a nuclear strike?" Your response to this question was "All options are on the table."

While we share your concern about Iran's irresponsible violations of its commitments under the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) and safeguards agreement which Iran signed with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), we do not believe that the U.S. should threaten to use nuclear weapons to resolve this crisis. We would also note that as the U.S. seeks to ensure strict Iranian compliance with its obligations under the NPT, we should keep in mind the fact that in connection with the 1995 NPT review conference, the United States issued a statement reaffirming earlier U.N. Security Council pledges that the U.S. "will not use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear-weapon States Parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons except in the case of an invasion or any other attack on the United States, its territories, its armed forces or other troops, its allies, or on a State towards which it has a security commitment, carried out or sustained by such a non-nuclear-weapon State in association or alliance with a nuclear-weapon State." We are not aware of any subsequent statements changing this position.

Global security will be greatly threatened if Iran develops nuclear weapons. However, a U.S. pre-emptive nuclear strike on Iran would likely have catastrophic consequences that counter U.S. security objectives - both in the Middle East and around the world. We therefore urge you to make it clear that the U.S. is not actively considering first use of nuclear weapons against Iran in response to its efforts to obtain uranium enrichment capabilities. We understand that in a crisis, many options - including military options -- must be carefully considered. But we believe there is still time for diplomacy and targeted sanctions to work and we urge you to focus your Administration's efforts on seeking a peaceful resolution of this crisis.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 01:21 pm
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/19062

Michael Massing on the AIPAC ferment...and this will fill in many blanks re Iran - who is pushing for war and why.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 May, 2006 01:27 pm
And we have the Israeli PM telling the Congress today that history will judge us on how we respond . . .
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 May, 2006 07:20 am
Iran Proposal to US Offered Peace With Israel

by Gareth Porter
Iran offered in 2003 to accept peace with Israel and cut off material assistance to Palestinian armed groups and to pressure them to halt terrorist attacks within Israel's 1967 borders, according to the secret Iranian proposal to the United States.

The two-page proposal for a broad Iran-U.S. agreement covering all the issues separating the two countries, a copy of which was obtained by IPS, was conveyed to the United States in late April or early May 2003. Trita Parsi, a specialist on Iranian foreign policy at Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies who provided the document to IPS, says he got it from an Iranian official earlier this year but is not at liberty to reveal the source.

The two-page document contradicts the official line of the George W. Bush administration that Iran is committed to the destruction of Israel and the sponsorship of terrorism in the region.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/porter.php?articleid=9040
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 May, 2006 02:32 pm
From Juan Cole.

Quote:
Iran Offered Recognition of Israel, Nuclear Cooperation
Bush: "How dare you!"

In 2003, Iran offered to come in from the cold in a proposal to George W. Bush. Recognition of Israel within 1967 borders, pressure on Hizbullah and the Palestinians to moderate, signing the additional protocols of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, full cooperation with the International Atomic Energy Agency, it was all there for Bush's taking.

What did Bush do?

He reprimanded the Swiss embassy, which takes care of US affairs in Iran, for daring to forward this proposal to Crawford on the Hudson.

Why?

Why?

Bush and his various constituencies (the military-industrial complex; the Christian Right; the Likudnik Lobby; and Big Oil) do not want peace with Iran.

How relieved they must have been when they managed to freeze out President Mohammad Khatami, who was trying to bring Iran back into the international community and reduce tensions.

How delighted they must have been when the world class buffoon Mahmoud Ahmadinejad succeeded Khatami and the hard liners strengthened their grasp after the Bush administration had done what it could to sabotage the Iranian reform movement.

Now Bush has Iran right where he wants it, in the sites of an ICBM.

Condi Rice called Iran the "central banker for terrorism" , even though the banks al-Qaeda used were in the UAE and Pakistan and no operational Iranian link to al-Qaeda has ever even been plausibly suggested. Rice hasn't said that again, because everyone pointed out to her that it is not true. Given that so many of the Israeli colonists busy stealing Palestinian land and pushing Palestinian children into thorn bushes are armed and demonstrably violent, and given that the US has designated Kach/ Kahana Chai as a terrorist group, it could as well be argued that the funders of Kach in particular and of the colonists in general are among the central bankers of terrorism in the world.

Then last week the Likudnik Lobby started a black psy-ops campaign to paint Iran as the Fourth Reich. The Khomeinist regime is oppressive and authoritarian, may God hasten its demise. But it hasn't invaded any neighbors, and it hasn't committed genocide (though it has executed dissidents and members of religious minorities who were prisoners of conscience), and you may as well assault Burma or Zimbabwe if you are a Warmongering Wilsonian.
0 Replies
 
 

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