Where angels dare tread...

hephzibah wrote:

LOL dok... you're asking ME? Hell if I know what spiritual is suppose to be.

Me either. Yes I'm asking you. You are unusual as you are on the borderline between theism and reason..who better to ask than you?

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Used to be this nice warm fuzzy feeling I got or whatever... I'm supposing spiritual is an idea of some sort in peoples minds of something greater than ourselves. Whether that be "god", or "gods", angels, demons, or even the tree your dog just peed on in the park the other day... *shrugs*

I agree that we, as humans, seem to have that drive to enshrine something 'greater' than ourselves. Virtually every culture on earth has a system of religion that serves these ends. I don't see that as evidence of the supernatural though, only a seldom explored human quality, something that by all logic is nothing more than a naturalistic trait. ( some have hypothesized this may have developed as a countermeasure to the anxiety of our own impending death, sometime after we became self aware as a species)
Personally, I enshrine my own potential as the greater force, the 'god' if you will. It serves me well, both psychologically and pragmatically.

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If only to understand what spirituality is. I think honestly it has something to do with an inner freedom. Though I have not a shred of conclusive evidence to prove that. It is just a suspicion of mine. I could be wrong though. It wouldn't be the first time.

Well, the notion of spirituality and 'freewill' do go hand in hand. Unfortunately, neither one has anything solid to back them up as being legit.

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LOL I'm curious about your point of view though. I guess in my mind I still have this idea of "satanism" being a worship of satan. However, I did read some of your thread about what you believe and why and was surprised at some of the things you said.

As I mentioned, my form of 'theism' involves the enshrinement of my own potential. That is the crux of Autotheism in general, and Satanism in specific.

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Re: Where angels dare tread...

neologist wrote:

I hope to realize the promise given to Adam and Eve.

That being? How do you hope to realize the promise given to Adam and Eve? Why would it be applicable to you?

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Main Entry: 1spir·it
Pronunciation: 'spir-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French or Latin; Old French, from Latin spiritus, literally, breath, from spirare to blow, breathe
1 : an animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
2 : a supernatural being or essence: as a capitalized : HOLY SPIRIT b : SOUL 2a c : an often malevolent being that is bodiless but can become visible; specifically : GHOST 2 d : a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human being
3 : temper or disposition of mind or outlook especially when vigorous or animated <in high spirits>
4 : the immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person
5 a : the activating or essential principle influencing a person <acted in a spirit of helpfulness> b : an inclination, impulse, or tendency of a specified kind : MOOD
6 a : a special attitude or frame of mind <the money-making spirit was for a time driven back -- J. A. Froude> b : the feeling, quality, or disposition characterizing something <undertaken in a spirit of fun>
7 : a lively or brisk quality in a person or a person's actions
8 : a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature
9 : a mental disposition characterized by firmness or assertiveness <denied the charge with spirit>
10 a : DISTILLATE 1: as (1) : the liquid containing ethyl alcohol and water that is distilled from an alcoholic liquid or mash -- often used in plural (2) : any of various volatile liquids obtained by distillation or cracking (as of petroleum, shale, or wood) -- often used in plural b : a usually volatile organic solvent (as an alcohol, ester, or hydrocarbon)
11 a : prevailing tone or tendency <spirit of the age> b : general intent or real meaning <spirit of the law>
12 : an alcoholic solution of a volatile substance <spirit of camphor>
13 : enthusiastic loyalty <school spirit>
14 capitalized, Christian Science : GOD 1b
synonym see COURAGE

Now that we've determine from an ordinary dictionary that spirituality is very complex and not necessarily religious nor having anything to do with intellect, I will down my glass of Pinot Noir and contemplate the nihilistic viewpoints on this forum.

Spirituality can simply be the hope that mankind will eventually "do the right thing" (Spike Lee, thanks) and even as sometimes with cynicism
we are able to view the world's negative course of action with trepidation and dismay, we still can find individual happiness.

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See, that's just it. Spirit is one of those words that can mean anything from hard alcohol to excitement to perseverance to a whole range of supernatural exegetics.
I have been assuming the religious definition, ie, the 'spiritual' as defined by common vernacular.
Words are very slippery, this one in particular. My problem is that it seems most use it without ever taking it out of the dark. They use it to explain things they don't want to think about, to simplify things;without ever defining what it actually is. Much like religion itself.
I see spirituality in this context as yet another set of blinders inhibiting true knowledge. Of course, I admit this as conjecture Razz

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Spirituality could mean a good vintage glass of wine. Like in "Sideways," I always prefer a Pinot Noir (it is a champagne grape, those litttle fellers). I know it make me feel very spiritual. Francis Crick's book, "Astonishing Hypothsis: The Scientific Search for the Soul" reveals that we do have a soul and we are born with a moral code, only to have every environmental bugaboo thrown at us to violate that code. We do survive and I wish everyone to find happiness even if knowledge sometimes thwarts happiness.

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Hypothsis: The Scientific Search for the Soul" reveals that we do have a soul and we are born with a moral code,

Now there is some research I would be VERY interested in seeing.
I wonder what methods he used to test for 'soul'
I wonder how he defines 'moral code' and further how he demonstrates it is innate (Although for the record I do think we are born with behavioral traits, but I'm not prepared to prove it)
Very interesting stuff.

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Doktor S wrote:

some have hypothesized this may have developed as a countermeasure to the anxiety of our own impending death

Less formal and more fun:

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it through not dying.

It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens.

It is impossible to experience one's own death objectively and still carry a tune.

Death is one of the few things that can be done as easily lying down.

What is it about death that bothers me so much? Probably the hours.

Friend: "What about all that talk about death being the same as sleep?"
Woody: "Yes, but the difference is that when you're dead and somebody yells, 'Everybody up, it's morning,' it's very hard to find your slippers."

Did matter begin with an explosion or by the word of God? And if by the latter, could He not have begun it just two weeks earlier to take advantage of some of the warmer weather?

Woody Allen

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Re: Where angels dare tread...

neologist wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
neologist wrote:
hephzibah wrote:
. . . If there is no heaven... no hell... then it would stand to reason there are no angels... no demons...
How do you reason that?

Well neo... why would there need to be angels if there were no heaven, or demons if there were not hell? it makes no sense.
I'll give you the short answer so everyone can beat up on me. That's always fun.

Adam and Eve were given the opportunity to live forever on earth. The consequence of their disobedience would be death - nothing more, nothing less. If there were to be a hell, it would only be fair to let them know then, don't you think?

As for the immortality of the soul, it is a myth.

Here are just two places where we are reminded of our mortality:
"Do not put YOUR trust in nobles,
Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.
4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
In that day his thoughts do perish." (Psalm 146: 6,7)

"For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9: 5, 6)

The fact that some humans may have been chosen for heaven does not change the fact that God's intention is for humans to populate the earth.

As for angels/demons. The angels, including the foremost angel, Jesus were all created before the earth. Satan made himself Satan when he caused the rebellion of Adam and Eve. The first mention of demons comes in the sixth chapter of Genesis where sons of the true God materialized to take human wives.

So, to answer your question:
1] There is a heaven for sentient spirit creations. I personally do not expect to go there.
2] There is no such thing as an immortal soul or everlasting torment.
3] Angels and demons do exist.
4] Satan and his angels will not be allowed to survive indefinitely

Why did God not just kill them all off in the first place then neo? What's the point of keeping them around if they are eventually not going to be around anyway? To torment the unsuspecting? To mess with people's minds? This really does not make any sense to me.

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Doktor S wrote:

hephzibah wrote:
LOL dok... you're asking ME? Hell if I know what spiritual is suppose to be.

Me either. Yes I'm asking you. You are unusual as you are on the borderline between theism and reason..who better to ask than you?

Quote:

Used to be this nice warm fuzzy feeling I got or whatever... I'm supposing spiritual is an idea of some sort in peoples minds of something greater than ourselves. Whether that be "god", or "gods", angels, demons, or even the tree your dog just peed on in the park the other day... *shrugs*

I agree that we, as humans, seem to have that drive to enshrine something 'greater' than ourselves. Virtually every culture on earth has a system of religion that serves these ends. I don't see that as evidence of the supernatural though, only a seldom explored human quality, something that by all logic is nothing more than a naturalistic trait. ( some have hypothesized this may have developed as a countermeasure to the anxiety of our own impending death, sometime after we became self aware as a species)
Personally, I enshrine my own potential as the greater force, the 'god' if you will. It serves me well, both psychologically and pragmatically.

Quote:

If only to understand what spirituality is. I think honestly it has something to do with an inner freedom. Though I have not a shred of conclusive evidence to prove that. It is just a suspicion of mine. I could be wrong though. It wouldn't be the first time.

Well, the notion of spirituality and 'freewill' do go hand in hand. Unfortunately, neither one has anything solid to back them up as being legit.

Quote:

LOL I'm curious about your point of view though. I guess in my mind I still have this idea of "satanism" being a worship of satan. However, I did read some of your thread about what you believe and why and was surprised at some of the things you said.

As I mentioned, my form of 'theism' involves the enshrinement of my own potential. That is the crux of Autotheism in general, and Satanism in specific.

So then what about all those "spiritual experiences" people say they have? What does all that boil down to? Disillusionment? Insanity? Wishful thinking? Over active emotions?

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Quote:

So then what about all those "spiritual experiences" people say they have? What does all that boil down to? Disillusionment? Insanity? Wishful thinking? Over active emotions?

Fuzzy thinkers buying into they hype of something they don't really comprehend.
The feeling of 'awe' experienced when viewing the grand canyon for the first time, might be described by some as a 'spiritual' experience. From my point of view, there is nothing supernatural about such an experience, as cool though it may be.
The human body is capable of a WIDE variety of emotional response. Many like to give some of these emotional responses supernatural qualities. Why? Who knows, but consider this:
Have you, personally, ever seen proof of a 'spiritual experience' that could not be explained by emotion or hysteria?

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To take the devil's advocate for amusement's sake, have you personally ever seen proof of any experience that could not be explained by a very long and very realistic dream?

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dok... I have had numerous "spiritual experiences" that I wouldn't even dare speak of here... From the very start of when I began believing in God. Fear not... I didn't see demons sitting on peoples shoulders or hear some divine voice from on high, or what not... just things... things that happened that cannot be explained. Well that anyone has yet to be able to explain anyway. *shrugs*

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Hi Heph
Careful about prematurely explaining the unexplained.

Once you figure you have it figured, you tend to close an eye to future figurings, which are often more truthful.

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Chumly wrote:

To take the devil's advocate for amusement's sake, have you personally ever seen proof of any experience that could not be explained by a very long and very realistic dream?

Ok, I should have appended my statement with 'more easily' You got me.

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I'm not trying to do that! LOL I have no way to explain any of this. Ok, I have one instance in mind if you wouldn't mind taking a look at it, I suppose I would be willing to post it here...

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Ok explain this if you can:

About two weeks after I got "saved" I began to doubt that I had made the right decision. That I was doing the right thing. My "salvation experience" was less than extraordinary. I decided to go for a walk and be alone for awhile. As I was walking I was questioning everything my heart. Wondering if I had made the right decision. These two women jogged past me and one of them stopped and said, "Hey." I turned around and looked at her thinking, "What in the world could this woman want with me?" I my life was a total train wreck at that point in my life and I didn't trust anyone.

She came walking back to me, held out her hand, and said, "Hi, my name is Marla. What's your name?" I told her, thinking to myself, "Why couldn't she have just kept jogging?" I was so uncomfortable. She smiled and said, "As I just jogged past you, the Holy Spirit spoke to me and wanted me to tell you that you made the right decision." I was like "uuuh, thanks". Shocked

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Re: Where angels dare tread...

hephzibah wrote:

Spirituality... what is it? Is it believing in ghosts and goblins? Is it worrying at night about a boogy monster under your bed? Maybe sitting on your shoulder? Watching your every move? Is it a God sitting on a throne somewhere out there... with a tie and suit... wringing his hands together in anticipation sending the next "sinner" to hell? Where do angels dare to tread? If there is no heaven... no hell... then it would stand to reason there are no angels... no demons... That our reality would be whatever we choose to make of it.

It may be said that if there was no life, existence would not be existence; it would be no different from non-existence. Life is the light of the spirit, and consciousness is the light of life. Since life and consciousness are important to this great extent; and since there is self-evidently an absolutely perfect order in the universe, and a masterly precision and most wise harmony; and since our lowly, wretched globe, our wandering earth has been filled with uncountable numbers of animate beings, intelligent beings, and beings with spirits; it may be concluded with decisive certainty that those heavenly palaces, those lofty constellations also have animate and conscious inhabitants appropriate to them. As fish swim in water, so are those luminous inhabitants present in the fire of the sun. Fire does not consume light; indeed, Fire aids light.

Moreover, since, as is plain to see, pre-eternal power creates innumerable animate beings and beings with spirits from the most common substances and densest matter, and giving it great importance, transmutes dense matter by means of life into a subtle substance; and since it strews the light of life everywhere in great abundance, and gilds most things with the light of consciousness; with such flawless power and faultless wisdom, the All-Wise and All-Powerful One would certainly not neglect the other floods of subtle matter like light and ether, which are close to and fitting for the spirit; He would not leave them without life, without consciousness, inanimate.

Indeed, He creates animate and conscious beings in great numbers from light, which is also matter, and even from meanings, air, and even words. Just as He creates numerous different species of animals, so from these torrents of subtle matter He creates numerous different spirit creatures. One kind of them are the angels, others are the varieties of spirit beings and jinn.

(This book is 33 pages and Ottoman handwriting.. It was written after 5 years ıt was seen that all the lines start with a-e (elif) letter.. totally 501 elif and it is same writer's name's number 501 according to arabic rules)

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Well that is something.
Assuming truth at face value here, we are indeed left with an event that is hard to explain by common means.

Personally, I would see more likelyhood that this stems from the human mind, the powers of observation, of that keen undefined sense we label 'intuition'
I too have had experiences of this nature that are not easily explained by what I personally know of science, but then again I really think our knowledge, as a whole, as a race, has a long way to go.

I supose the difference between me and many others, is when I find myself faced with something I can't explain (which is fairly often I supose) I assume it is simply a lack of understanding on my own part, rather than assume because I do not understand it, it must be magical.

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I really have no reason to lie here. It's things like this that I have to question as I'm taking a good hard look at what I believe and why. While I can understand your theory on this about powers of observation, I would like to ask, how much observation can one do of someone else in such a short time span? Is it really enough to key it down to being exactly what I was thinking?

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Where angels dare tread...

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