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What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 06:54 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Quote:
Labour shortage leaves Florida's oranges to rot

Associated Press in Lakeland
Monday July 10, 2006
The Guardian


Millions of oranges will rot on the trees of Florida this year because a shortage of fruitpickers has been aggravated by fears about more stringent US immigration laws, local media reported yesterday.
"There's very little doubt we'll leave a significant amount of fruit on the tree," Mike Carlton, the director of production and labour affairs at Florida Citrus Mutual, told the newspaper The Ledger. "Whether that's 3m boxes or 6m boxes, nobody can say."

Full report


We had had the similar here, when different regulations re Polish saisonal workers came into force - it will all sort out, the one or the other way.


It's a hot topic here in Europe as well, see this opinion in todayƄs The Guardian:
Barricades won't stop migration. We have to learn how to manage it


I guess the fact that so many workers are in New Orleansmaking far more money working construction then they would be picking oranges never entered the minds of the authors, huh?

If orange growers are truly concerned, they will offer more money to get them picked. If they faill to harvest their crops because they relied on cheap immigrant labor then they deserve to fail.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 07:12 am
Well, that's part of the elephant in the room that is apparently off limits to discuss McG.

Following are some thoughts of Richard D. Lamm, the most successful and longest tenured Democratic governor that Colorado has ever had, delivered at a Washington DC conference on immirgration. (I had seen this before but I took this out of an e-mail. Still looking for a link as I think this may be excerpted somewhat and I can't guarantee that none of it is paraphrased, but here's Snopes comment on it: http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp):

From Lamm's remarks at the conference:

"If you believe that America is too smug, too self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'"

"Here is how they do it."

"First, to destroy America, turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bicultural country." History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual. The historical scholar, Seymour Lipset, put it this way: "The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy." Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, and Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."

Second, to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds.

Third, "We could make the United States a 'Hispanic Quebec' without much effort. The key is to celebrate diversity rather than unity. As Benjamin Schwarz said in the Atlantic Monthly recently: "The apparent success of our own multiethnic and multicultural experiment might have been achieved not by tolerance but by hegemony. Without the dominance that once dictated ethnocentricity and what it meant to be an American, we are left with only tolerance and pluralism to hold us together." Lamm said, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural subgroups living in America enforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated, and antagonistic to our population. I would have this second underclass have a 50% dropout rate from high school."

"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology.' I would get all minorities to think that their lack of success was the fault of the majority. I would start a grievance industry blaming all minority failure on the majority population."

"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship, and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other - that is, when they are not killing each other. A diverse, peaceful, or stable society is against most historical precedent. People undervalue the unity it takes to keep a nation together. Look at the ancient Greeks. The Greeks believed that they belonged to the same race; they possessed a common language and literature; and they worshipped the same gods. All Greece took part in the Olympic Games. A common enemy, Persia, threatened their liberty. Yet all these bonds were not strong enough to overcome two factors: local patriotism and geographical conditions that nurtured political divisions. Greece fell. "E. Pluribus Unum" -- (From many, one). In that historical reality, if we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'Unum,' we will balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."

"Next to last, I would place all subjects off limits; make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity.' I would find a word similar to 'heretic' in the 16th century - that stopped discussion and paralyzed thinking. Words like 'racist' or 'xenophobe' halt discussion and debate. Having made America a bilingual/bicultural country, having established multi-culturism, having the large foundations fund the doctrine of 'Victimology,' I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: That because immigration has been good for America, it must always be good. I would make every individual immigrant symmetric and ignore the cumulative impact of millions of them."

In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. Profound silence followed. Finally he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Hanson Davis's book "Mexifornia." His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 07:29 am
McGentrix wrote:
I guess the fact that so many workers are in New Orleansmaking far more money working construction then they would be picking oranges never entered the minds of the authors, huh?


Wouldn't it be much better to address e.g. the people at Florida Citrus Mutual, Florida Natural Growers etc instead the messengers of their reports?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 07:35 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
I guess the fact that so many workers are in New Orleansmaking far more money working construction then they would be picking oranges never entered the minds of the authors, huh?


Wouldn't it be much better to address e.g. the people at Florida Citrus Mutual, Florida Natural Growers etc instead the messengers of their reports?


Possibly, but the people at Florida Citrus Mutual, Florida Natural Growers, etc. didn't write the piece and we don't know whether they would have left out the obvious or not.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 07:53 am
Phil Lamm's little tirade is now cliche.... but let's discuss it (seeing as you brought the elephant back into the room).

First of all... in my opinion multiculturalism has, without question, been a great asset to the United States and from the beginning of the 20th our struggles to assure that first Blacks, then Catholics, then Jews and Asians were all protected and respected and then assimilated are a key to our success.

But let me ask bluntly. Do you really think that multiculturalism is a bad thing?

The Second half of the elephant is this wonderful passage.

" I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds."

OK, now that you let the elephant back in the room... let's have at it. There is no explanation that is out of bounds.

What is your explanation?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 07:59 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Phil Lamm's little tirade is now cliche.... but let's discuss it (seeing as you brought the elephant back into the room).

First of all... in my opinion multiculturalism has, without question, been a great asset to the United States and from the beginning of the 20th our struggles to assure that first Blacks, then Catholics, then Jews and Asians were all protected and respected and then assimilated are a key to our success.

But let me ask bluntly. Do you really think that multiculturalism is a bad thing?

The Second half of the elephant is this wonderful passage.

" I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds."

OK, now that you let the elephant back in the room... let's have at it. There is no explanation that is out of bounds.

What is your explanation?


Well, if you can't even get the man's name right, how much faith can I allow for you having really read and thought through what he is saying?

Yes, multiculturalism as a national policy is a bad thing and it has been a bad thing everywhere it has been tried. Immigrants in the past have seamlessly assimilated into the American culture. They retain an appreciation for the old country language and ways of course, but they were and are first and foremost Americans and identifiable with a common American culture.

And let's hear your explanation for why the following statement is not part of a recipe for weakening and/or being destructive to society.
Quote:
" I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due solely to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds."


I think he's spot on accurate. Remember he's laying out a plan for destroying America.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:08 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Possibly, but the people at Florida Citrus Mutual, Florida Natural Growers, etc. didn't write the piece and we don't know whether they would have left out the obvious or not.


Ah, I see: so I better don't quote any newspaper anymore, because - who knows?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:09 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Possibly, but the people at Florida Citrus Mutual, Florida Natural Growers, etc. didn't write the piece and we don't know whether they would have left out the obvious or not.


Ah, I see: so I better don't quote any newspaper anymore, because - who knows?


No. But it would be pleasant if you would allow people the courtesy of an opinion that was contrary to the newspapers you quote and didn't get your shorts in a wad everytime somebody disagrees with your take on it. Do you think newspapers print only the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the turth?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:13 am
Well, I think, I'm going to post an equavalent to your above everytime you quote some media reports with literal quotations of named persons.

Not to speak about 'normal' media reports.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:21 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Well, I think, I'm going to post an equavalent to your above everytime you quote some media reports with literal quotations of named persons.

Not to speak about 'normal' media reports.


Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought the purpose of a board like this was to actually discuss issues and offer opinions about those issues. I have not been under the impression that the purpose was to agree with Walter and never offer a different opinion.

When I post an article, I expect people to have pro and con opinions about the content. That's sort of how people are don't you think? You won't find me ever criticizing somebody just because s/he holds an opinion different from mine or the content of something I post. I do have problems with people who have nothing more to offer than hateful screeds or whose contribution is mostly to criticize sources or other members, however.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:26 am
Foxfyre wrote:

When I post an article, I expect people to have pro and con opinions about the content. That's sort of how people are don't you think? You won't find me ever criticizing somebody just because s/he holds an opinion different from mine or the content of something I post. I do have problems with people who have nothing more to offer than criticize sources or other members, however.


This was news, not opinion. It will take some time, but if you want, I possible can copy the original Florida papers

Quote:
Millions of oranges will rot on the trees of Florida this year because a shortage of fruitpickers has been aggravated by fears about more stringent US immigration laws, local media reported yesterday


as well as that original AP-newswire report.

I do have problems with members who shoot the messenger.


But I do agree that one should look carefully at what local Florida papers report.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:34 am
And I have a problem with messengers that misrepresnt a story, or leave out pertinent facts.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:37 am
McGentrix wrote:
And I have a problem with messengers that misrepresnt a story, or leave out pertinent facts.


As there are? When you look at the Florida online papers - they report exactly that (only with more local people and more concern about more oranges on trees) than in that AP-report.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:38 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

When I post an article, I expect people to have pro and con opinions about the content. That's sort of how people are don't you think? You won't find me ever criticizing somebody just because s/he holds an opinion different from mine or the content of something I post. I do have problems with people who have nothing more to offer than criticize sources or other members, however.


This was news, not opinion. It will take some time, but if you want, I possible can copy the original Florida papers

Quote:
Millions of oranges will rot on the trees of Florida this year because a shortage of fruitpickers has been aggravated by fears about more stringent US immigration laws, local media reported yesterday


as well as that original AP-newswire report.

I do have problems with members who shoot the messenger.


"News' that is presented in a way to produce a particular ideological impression or point of view is not 'news' but is in fact opinion. That is one of the first canon laws of objective reporting that I learned in journalism class.

Nobody 'shot the messenger'. McG offered an observation that if the wages for fruit pickers was equivalent to what other industries are paying, there would likely be less shortage of fruit pickers. He is within his rights to think that would have been appropriate to mention in the story. You are within your rights to disagree with him, but you could have a real dialogue if you stated your disagreement instead of complaining about him.

And about 'shooting that messenger', what are you doing with all your 'gotcha' posts re sources?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:40 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
And I have a problem with messengers that misrepresnt a story, or leave out pertinent facts.


As there are? When you look at the Florida online papers - they report exactly that (only with more local people and more concern about more oranges on trees) than in that AP-report.


I read the article from the Guardian newspaper. The facts I mentioned were not expressed in that article.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:43 am
McGentrix wrote:

I read the article from the Guardian newspaper. The facts I mentioned were not expressed in that article.


That Guardian article is clearly quoted as an AP-report, both online as well as in the print version.

The Florida papers - the AP-report quotes - didn't mention your facts neither.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:45 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McGentrix wrote:

I read the article from the Guardian newspaper. The facts I mentioned were not expressed in that article.


That Guardian article is clearly quoted as an AP-report, both online as well as in the print version.

The Florida papers - the AP-report quotes - didn't mention your facts neither.


Well, there ya go.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 08:50 am
Bush country :wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 09:11 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Bush country :wink:


Well, if it was in fact a "Bush country" article, they would have suggested that the fruit growers pay more to get their fruit picked. Smile
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jul, 2006 09:48 am
From an opinion in today's Chicago Tribune (page 13) by Clarence Page:

Quote:
[...]
President Bush used to proclaim that illegal immigrants were taking "jobs Americans don't want." He more recently adjusted his rhetoric to refer more accurately to "jobs Americans are not taking." If the jobs paid more, more Americans probably would take them. But that runs the risk of reducing profits for employers or raising prices for consumers. Rather than risk a price hike for lettuce, many Americans prefer to look the other way. The result is what I call a make-believe immigration policy of laws that few people feel bound to respect.
[...]
The very fact that the hearings are being held around the country is a signal that we are probably not going to see any reconciliation of the two bills into something Bush can sign this year. By the time the hearings are over, it will be fall and time for midterm election campaigns to begin, which is a time when nothing of consequence happens in Congress.

Meanwhile, the burdens that our make-believe immigration policy imposes on low-wage earners, immigrant and nonimmigrant alike, continue. Their labors are devalued in a crowded labor market. The gap between highest and lowest earners continues to grow as the real income of low-wage earners continues to stagnate.

Raising the minimum wage would help, just for starters. Raising the Earned Income Tax Credit would help more.
[...]


Online (full version): They're illegal when we say so
0 Replies
 
 

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