What should be done about illegal immigration?

Well I gave you sources as you (and Thomas) requested. So if you have different data for illegal immigrants then put it up. Or let's agree that crime committed by illegal immigrants is at least a factor that should be considered with the whole in coming up with policy that everybody can live with and let's move on.

Foxfyre wrote:

The truth is most or at least many illegals are decent, hard working people who just want a shot at a better life. I don't begrudge them that in any way and hope we can find a way to make it legal for them to do that. But the truth is also that all who sneak into our country illegally are not nice people, and .

What is it now "most or at least many illegals are decent" or "it is quite naive to assume that they are a rare exception"?

Foxfyre wrote:

Well I gave you sources as you (and Thomas) requested. So if you have different data for illegal immigrants then put it up. Or let's agree that crime committed by illegal immigrants is at least a factor that should be considered with the whole in coming up with policy that everybody can live with and let's move on.

Let's look at your first source: The paper from the Dallas Fed. It says this:

"We find that while the volume of illegal immigration is not related to changes in property-related crime, there is a significant positive correlation with the incidence of violent crime. This is most likely due to extensive smuggling activity along the border."

Contrast this with your original assertion: "I certainly do not wish to make grand theft auto, robbery, muggings, murder, rape, etc. etc. etc. legal just yet." None of the issues you mentioned is supported by the data in this paper. Illegal immigrants bring no increase in property crime ("grand theft auto, robbery, muggings"), and what violent crime they bring is "most likely due to extensive smuggling activity along the border". So your fear of 'rape' is fantasy, and what remains would go away under legal immigration.

Do you want me to go on with your other sources?

Or again, is your primary goal here just to prove me wrong?

Just keep reading Thomas. I didn't read all the sources I posted thoroughly. I just gave you the first few that came up and checked them for content.

I do, however have relatives in the Albuquerque Police Dept. and friends in law enforcement here and elsewhere, and I trust what they tell me.

Now if you have data that proves that I am not, let's see it.

Or again, is your primary goal here just to prove me wrong?

Prison population total
(including pre-trial detainees / remand prisoners): 2,135,901 at 31.12.2004 (U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics - a further 102,238 juveniles were held in custodial institutions at October 2002, a further 1,826 in 'jails in Indian country' at 30.6.2003, 9,788 in immigration facilities at 31.12.2004 and 2,177 in military facilities in 31.12.2004)

Foreign prisoners (percentage of prison population): 6.5%
(of those in state and federal prisons, 30.6.2004) Source:

Well, you are right.

These data from the King's College are complete nonsense and used by academic idiots all over world.

Like others have told me: it's totaý inl vain discusing with you. I should have listened.

Have a nice day.

It would be nice if everyone just took a deep, deep breath and resolved to lower the temperature of their rhetoric. Here are some facts, and no one has to do a lot of research to prove them.

It is a fact that the U.S. Immigration Service is, and has long been, ineffective at enforcing existing immigration laws. The 'Migra is understaffed and underfunded to perform its mission. The outfit has long been a safe harbor of inefficient bureaucrats, but only since 9/11 has its failings been put under a microscope. The number of people who want to get into the United States for a multitude of reasons is almost unbelievably large. Visas, and other 'legal', means of entering the country are issued with little or no proper checking of the visitor's background, identity, or purposes for entering the country. Once inside, we have virtually no means of keeping track of where the visitors are, or if they are complying with the terms of their entry permits. Many come here legally to visit and never leave. The numbers are so large and the difficulties of keeping track of the 'legal' visitors/immigrants are so great that even 'legal' entry into the United States poses a security risk.

It is a fact that national security is endangered by the continued uncontrolled and illegal entry of many thousands daily into this country. The country wasn't endangered when a few thousand tons of marijuana was smuggled across the border, but the illegal importation of Cocain and Heroin pose a very real danger to the public welfare. Even more dangerous to the national security would be the entry of terrorists blending into the stream of illegals crossing our southern border. Instead of narcotics these might bring with them munitions, toxic chemicals, radiological or biological materials that could be used in further attacks on U.S. soil and citizens. This is an unacceptable risk that should motivate us to find means of reducing the illegal violation of our borders.

It is a fact that everyday tens of thousands (at least) cross U.S. borders over the wire, or across the Rio Grande, and not through any legal border crossing. Effectively patrolling U.S. land borders is tough, perhaps even impossible. Thousands of miles of fence across empty landscapes is a challenge. In towns along the border enforcement is even tougher. The folks who live here have been intermingling informally for hundreds of years. Southwesterners cross the border sometimes a dozen times in a week. The differences are mostly just a matter of address. In the past that wasn't much of a problem, we all pretty much knew one another (even if we weren't related someway). As conditions have grown worse south of the border and the United States has offered greater benefits, what used to be a trickle has become a flood.
The border States and communities need relief, and soon.

It is a fact that the overwhelming majority of those entering the country illegally are good, honest, hard-working people who only want to improve the quality of their lives and to provide better opportunities for their children. Once the illegals have gotten past the borderlands, they don't face much risk of being caught or sent home. They find low paying jobs, and often are terribly exploited. They avoid contact with the police, or public agencies as much as possible for fear of being extradited. This make victims of them and often they work in conditions that are often deplorable. They pay their taxes, and send what money they can home to feed their children. Over the years they learn some English and become more comfortable in their life within the United States, but they always remain afraid and vulnerable. Their families join them and new children are born American citizens. There are families who came here illegally a generation, or more, ago who otherwise are just like any other American. These illegals are indistinguishable from those who are legal U.S. citizens who may have trouble locating their birth certificate.

It is a fact that State and local communities near the Mexican border bear a disproportionate burden in providing the health, welfare, and law enforcement services made necessary by the uncontrolled entry of immigrants. When I was growing up on the ranch most of our hands were illegal Mexicans who had spent years working for us when we needed help and spent the rest of their lives with family just over the line. Now people come over the line from all over Meso and South America in transit to what they hope is a permanent life away from the borderlands. Hiding among those hordes are narcotics smugglers, and perhaps a certain number who intend to harm the United States in a more direct way. This "invasion" has made it even more difficult for ranchers to make a living raising cattle. Fences are cut, water tanks damaged, stock rustled and killed, and there is fear on isolated ranches of "home invasion" by those with sinister intent. In communities where medical assistance is barely adequate for local residents, the system is overwhelmed by the need to care for illegals on their way North. Local law enforcement is swamped and challenged by crime committed by shadowy transients. Local resources are insufficient to maintain these and other services that come with the tens of thousands who come over the wire.

Now folks may disagree with the numbers involved, but there is no doubt that the numbers of people illegally coming into the United States is huge and poses a threat to the nation. What is the threat, and how great is it? That depends on who you ask and what their own prejudices are. That there should be steps taken to reduce the number of illegal entries, should excite little opposition, though what those steps should be is certain to provoke disagreement. There are at least two separate issues that need to be dealt with.

1. How to gain effective control over who enters the United States. A few possible alternatives:
> Build walls thousands of miles long with high-tech monitors, and an improved Border Patrol large and agile enough to stem the traffic over the wire and across the Rio Grande. Prohibitively expensive, probably not terribly effective, and probably not doable anyway.
> Adopt foreign policies to mitigate pressure to cross our border illegally. This approach takes time, patience and diplomacy ... none of which is likely to be popular. How does one improve conditions in Mexico to the point where life in the United States isn't so attractive? If that could be done, then wouldn't the problem just be moved to the next frontier? The fact is that almost everyone in the world desperately wants to escape local problems and live the American life style.
> Give up the effort and let anyone and everyone cross legally. The problem with this alternative, is that there are folks out there who hate the U.S. and wish to do us grave harm. If we throw open our borders absolutely, wouldn't that be in itself a threat to national sovereignty? Are we ready to become Mexico, Pakistan, or Palestine?

2. Deal with the already large number of illegal residents within the country. A few possible alternatives:
> Adopt some variation of President Bush's Guest Worker/Amnesty Program. All in all, this is probably about as good a public policy as we are likely to see.
> Embark upon the most dangerous program of trying to round-up and deport all illegal residents. If adopted, this would very likely result in disaster for our country and Constitution. It would lead to grave injustices for many innocent legal citizens of the nation, and would likely provoke violent confrontations in the Border States, and in communities where Hispanic populations are large. The cost in treasure would be a disaster, and the distraction during a time of national crisis over attacks by radical Islamic terrorists most inadvisable. This is a NON_START alternative, and we'd best put it altogether out of our minds.
> Do what we've always done ... talk about it with grave concern, but do nothing substantive. Guess which alternative I would personally bet on?