50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 10:33 am
Thomas wrote:
So I take it your answer to my question is: "Yes, I would find it acceptable if Albuquerque confined German immigrants to the back of its buses."

That's interesting.


Language barriers and culture differences aside, I cannot in my wildest imaginations figure out how you possibly extracted that from anything I said.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 10:34 am
Thomas wrote:

That's interesting.


But actually she always follows that general line - mostly more politely circumscribing it, though.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 10:38 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Thomas wrote:

That's interesting.


But actually she always follows that general line - mostly more politely circumscribing it, though.


If you are going to deal in ad hominems, Walter, please be more specific. Exactly how do I do that?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 10:41 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Thomas wrote:
So I take it your answer to my question is: "Yes, I would find it acceptable if Albuquerque confined German immigrants to the back of its buses."

That's interesting.


Language barriers and culture differences aside, I cannot in my wildest imaginations figure out how you possibly extracted that from anything I said.

It flows quite naturally from your rhetorical question: "What fundamental right is there to sit in any particular place on a bus?", your assertion that citizenship makes a difference, and the fact that German immigrants are citizens of Germany, not America. (I should probably have made that clearer in my hypothetical. In fact, I should have used a German tourist.)

Moreover, a look into the 14th Amendment should convince you that the equal protection of the law is not confined to citizens. The amendment reads in relevant part: "[N]or shall any State [...] deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Note: "person", not "citizen".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 10:44 am
Foxfyre wrote:

If you are going to deal in ad hominems, Walter, please be more specific. Exactly how do I do that?


Nothing at "ad hominem" - I just think that you indeed have a great talent to write a 'weaker' form of what you actually think.

My opinion, based on what I read .... and, of course, admittingla how I read it.

I'm most certainly not as religious as you are, but as a Christian I can't tolerate a couple of things, neither here (and that's where I'm predominantly active) nor elsewhere (which I can't change but only discuss).
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 10:47 am
Additionally to the 14th Amendment - see Thomas' response above - the USA have signed and ratified treaties which say different.

And actually that's what they always critised in other countried, see e.g. the annual State Department's reports about it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 10:54 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

If you are going to deal in ad hominems, Walter, please be more specific. Exactly how do I do that?


Nothing at "ad hominem" - I just think that you indeed have a great talent to write a 'weaker' form of what you actually think.

My opinion, based on what I read .... and, of course, admittingla how I read it.

I'm most certainly not as religious as you are, but as a Christian I can't tolerate a couple of things, neither here (and that's where I'm predominantly active) nor elsewhere (which I can't change but only discuss).


And for you to assume, say, or speculate on what "I actually think" as opposed to what I say is not ad hominem? You certainly have a different definition of ad hominem than I do.

I don't see what being Christian or not has to do with powers to determine the mind of another. My opinion is that I have no power to say what 'you really think" as opposed to what you actually say. I also think that is a pretty good principle to follow.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 10:59 am
Okay, you are right.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 11:05 am
Thomas wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Thomas wrote:
So I take it your answer to my question is: "Yes, I would find it acceptable if Albuquerque confined German immigrants to the back of its buses."

That's interesting.


Language barriers and culture differences aside, I cannot in my wildest imaginations figure out how you possibly extracted that from anything I said.

It flows quite naturally from your rhetorical question: "What fundamental right is there to sit in any particular place on a bus?", your assertion that citizenship makes a difference, and the fact that German immigrants are citizens of Germany, not America. (I should probably have made that clearer in my hypothetical. In fact, I should have used a German tourist.)

Moreover, a look into the 14th Amendment should convince you that the equal protection of the law is not confined to citizens. The amendment reads in relevant part: "[N]or shall any State [...] deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Note: "person", not "citizen".


It doesn't flow naturally at all. I don't have the right to demand a particular seat on a bus and neither do you as a German tourist. And neither does somebody here illegally. I think I made it clear that I would consider it very bad manners to send Germans or any other tourists to the back of the bus as a matter of policy. Where any legalities would come in there, I'm not sure, but you could be right that our courts would rule in your favor if you pushed the issue. Where I objected was in your assumption that I would think it was okay. I did not say that, imply that, or leave any question about that.

The 14th amendment does not protect illegals in all cases however. In your earlier example of requirements for your green card, you are not automatically entitled to all benefits of U.S. citizenship. Also, the U.S. government cannot deport me however, as a U.S. citizen just because I break the law. The government, however, can immediately deport an illegal whether or not he breaks the same law I broke. So there are exceptions to 'equal treatment' between citizens and non citizens.

The bottom line, according to Findlaw, is that everybody in the same circumstances is entitled to equal protection under the law; not necessarily that everybody is treated the same in all circumstances.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 11:09 am
ebrown_p wrote:
This argument is a political battle between two groups of Americans... those who are promoting law and order and harsh penalties, and those who are asking for understanding, compassion and a respect for diversity.....

But your side can't even get HR4437 passed. It is not the "illegals" (who can't even vote) who are stopping this bill, it is the fact that many Americans want their country to be a place of compassion and understanding.

You and I have apparently have different views of what values America should hold to, and this means that we will have the political struggle that we are now engaged in...



You persist in making statements that indicate I'm not compassionate, understanding and am racist / do not want diversity. That's ridiculous. The people of Dulfar are being murdered by the thousands. How about if it were 12 million of them coming into the US without any knowledge of who they are? Would you fight passionately for them to be allowed to stay? And, then 12 million Chinese coming by boatloads and unchecked flight records due to an opressive government? And, 12 million Iraqi's escaping chaos, are you gonna voice your compassion for them so they can all stay?

Is that the only compassionate, understanding and non-racist answer to the problems of the world? Or, would we all be better off dealing with the issues so they can have the lives they dream of in their own country?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 11:27 am
squinney wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
This argument is a political battle between two groups of Americans... those who are promoting law and order and harsh penalties, and those who are asking for understanding, compassion and a respect for diversity.....

But your side can't even get HR4437 passed. It is not the "illegals" (who can't even vote) who are stopping this bill, it is the fact that many Americans want their country to be a place of compassion and understanding.

You and I have apparently have different views of what values America should hold to, and this means that we will have the political struggle that we are now engaged in...


You persist in making statements that indicate I'm not compassionate, understanding and am racist / do not want diversity. That's ridiculous. The people of Dulfar are being murdered by the thousands. How about if it were 12 million of them coming into the US without any knowledge of who they are? Would you fight passionately for them to be allowed to stay? And, then 12 million Chinese coming by boatloads and unchecked flight records due to an opressive government? And, 12 million Iraqi's escaping chaos, are you gonna voice your compassion for them so they can all stay?

Is that the only compassionate, understanding and non-racist answer to the problems of the world? Or, would we all be better off dealing with the issues so they can have the lives they dream of in their own country?


Well said, Squinney. Our focus and emphasis should be on encouraging the rest of the world to come up with a system or systems that would promote peace, freedom, prosperity, and opportunity for the people wherever they are. The U.S. could take in all the world's poor, but in the process would lose the very qualities that make people want to be here. I can't see how that would benefit anybody.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 12:20 pm
In my opinion, if the GOP is sunk in November, it will be because the House caved in and mostly accepted the Senate bill as presented. Right now there is no indication the House is prepared to cave though.

May 26, 2006, 9:08 a.m.
Temporary Madness
National Review
By The Editors


The Senate isn't serious about enforcing the nation's immigration laws. It is bad enough that the bill that 39 Democrats and 23 Republicans just voted to pass provides an amnesty to illegal immigrants already here. There might be an argument for doing that if there were any evidence of a commitment to enforce the immigration laws in the future. But the bill actually prohibits local police from enforcing civil violations of immigration laws?-which in practice, given the byzantine rules distinguishing between civil and criminal violations of those laws, will get local police out of the enforcement business altogether. No serious effort is being made to make the bureaucracy capable of the enforcement tasks that will now be asked of them, such as performing background checks on the illegal population.

The bill forbids the federal government to use any information included in an application for amnesty in national-security or criminal investigations. Any federal agent who does use that information would be fined $10,000?-which is five times more than an illegal alien would have to pay to get the amnesty. The Senate, on a tie vote, defeated John Cornyn's (R., Tex.) attempt to rectify these provisions.

When Sen. Johnny Isakson (R., Ga.) offered an amendment to require that enforcement be proven to have succeeded before the amnesty or guest-worker provisions could take effect, he was voted down, 55-40. For most senators, enforcement is just boob bait for the voters. They are not willing to demand it before getting what they, for various reasons, really want: an amnesty and a massive increase in legal immigration.
Sen. Jeff Sessions (R., Ala.) wanted to deny illegal immigrants the earned income tax credit. It is one thing to legalize them, went the argument, and another to subsidize them. He, too, was voted down, with Sen. John McCain (R., Ariz.) flippantly suggesting that the amendment was akin to requiring illegals to ride in the back of the bus. (No, senator: They're in the front of the line, at least for legal residency in the U.S.)

The "temporary" guest-workers will be eligible for citizenship. If they overstay their welcome, there is no guarantee they will be deported?-especially when Congress will have signaled, by passing this bill, its view that deportation is draconian. So these "temporary" workers will permanently change America. Robert Rector of the Heritage Foundation estimates that the bill would make for an inflow of 66 million immigrants over the next 20 years. Since much of this inflow would consist of poor and relatively uneducated people, one result would be, he says, the largest expansion of the welfare state in 35 years. (And he's not accounting for the likely effects of these people's votes.) Another very likely result would be the increased balkanization of America, as this massive inflow slows both economic and cultural assimilation.

If supporters of the Senate bill were serious about securing the border, they would have considered following a strategy of attrition?-of stepping up enforcement of the immigration laws so as to shrink the illegal-immigrant population over time?-and, if they ultimately rejected that strategy, explained why. Implicit in their arguments for amnesty and a guest-worker program is one possible objection to the attrition strategy: that the American economy needs more cheap, unskilled labor. Proponents of mass immigration boast that immigration brings a net benefit of $10 billion to the American economy. But this amount is, in the context of our $13 trillion economy, trivial. Reduced immigration would lead to some increased outsourcing, some substitution of machines for labor, some increased wages, and some higher prices. The economy would survive.

So will Republicans, if they reject this bill (as most Senate Republicans did). They are being told that they need to pass a bill, even if they dislike many of its provisions, to be seen as "doing something" about the border. But the voters who care the most about this issue know that the Senate bill does something they heartily detest. They know that the only way to get any enforcement of our immigration laws?-at the border or the workplace?-is to keep all of the interests that want increased immigration from getting what they want until enforcement is achieved.

The Senate should stand down in favor of the House's enforcement-first approach, not the other way around. But it would be much better to enact no bill than to enact the Senate bill.
SOURCE
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 12:26 pm
The first sentence from Fox's post, above:
The Senate isn't serious about enforcing the nation's immigration laws.

That's been my message all along; the congress and our government hasn't taken responsibility for illegal immigration. That's the crux and bottom line on this issue.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 12:27 pm
All the laws congress makes on illegal immigration doesn't amount to a hill of beans until they enforce what they make into law.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 12:28 pm
All they're doing now is producing phart.
0 Replies
 
SierraSong
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 12:28 pm
The Minutemen are serious. Right now, they're busy building part of the fence.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 12:58 pm
squinney wrote:

You persist in making statements that indicate I'm not compassionate, understanding and am racist / do not want diversity. That's ridiculous. The people of Dulfar...



You are making statements that indicate you are not compassionate.

You want to punish people I care about by insisting on uprooting their lives. You want to give spouses the choice of either leaving lives and careers or breaking up their families. You want to pull kids from school and send kids who have grown up here and are Americans in every way except a sheet of paper to what is to them a foreign country.

You are willing to do these things because either they or their parents broke the law by crossing a border or overstaying a visa. Even though you accept that when Americans break the law, it is sometimes a good thing to offer compassion and understanding.

We are not talking about people in Darfor (although I would love to be able to help). We are talking about people who are living with us and working for us.

But the Senate Bill is offering the border security.

If you care about border security then you will support the Senate bill. If you care about punishing people who you resent being here you will support blocking it.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 01:12 pm
If we use your logic eBrown we will have to conclude:

a) You want as many illegals to move here as want to move here
b) You don't want the government to do anything to stop them or do anything but welcome them with open arms when they come
c) You don't mind that hard working people who have played by the rules all their lives are, against their choice, having to support many of the illegals who get here
d) You don't mind that hospitals close emergency room and deny everybody emergency care because they can no longer afford to provide free services for so many
e) You don't care that all students suffer from so many special needs kids who can't speak any English being admitted to the schools to receive a free education
f) You don't care that 40 to 60% of the prison populations of the border states are made up of illegals who have committed serious crimes
g) You don't care if a few terrorists slip across the border along with ordinary people
h) You don't mind if a few more tons of illegal drugs are brought into the country and peddled to your kids
i) It's okay with you that wages are artificially depressed in industries where large numbers of illegals are working
j) You don't care if the United States becomes just another overpopulated, under resourced third world country unable to take care of its own people, much less able to help out others in time of need.
k) You don't care that those who have played by the rules to immigrate legally are punished while illegal activity is rewarded.

Or maybe you don't want all this, but just don't want to see that everybody here wants the best solutions and are looking for the best way to accomplish them. Making negative personal assumptions about those with whom you disagree simply is not useful or constructive to the debate.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 01:20 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
If we use your logic eBrown we will have to conclude:

a) You want as many illegals to move here as want to move here
b) You don't want the government to do anything to stop them or do anything but welcome them with open arms when they come
c) You don't mind that hard working people who have played by the rules all their lives are, against their choice, having to support many of the illegals who get here
d) You don't mind that hospitals close emergency room and deny everybody emergency care because they can no longer afford to provide free services for so many
e) You don't care that all students suffer from so many special needs kids who can't speak any English being admitted to the schools to receive a free education
f) You don't care that 40 to 60% of the prison populations of the border states are made up of illegals who have committed serious crimes
g) You don't care if a few terrorists slip across the border along with ordinary people
h) You don't mind if a few more tons of illegal drugs are brought into the country and peddled to your kids
i) It's okay with you that wages are artificially depressed in industries where large numbers of illegals are working
j) You don't care if the United States becomes just another overpopulated, under resourced third world country unable to take care of its own people, much less able to help out others in time of need.
k) You don't care that those who have played by the rules to immigrate legally are punished while illegal activity is rewarded.

Or maybe you don't want all this, but just don't want to see that everybody here wants the best solutions and are looking for the best way to accomplish them. Making negative personal assumptions about those with whom you disagree simply is not useful or constructive to the debate.

Unsubstantianted hyperbole to the max. This above screed resounds of "the commies are coming if not already hiding under your bed."
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 May, 2006 01:32 pm
Please feel free so show your documentation where any of the scenarios listed have not happened. I don't expect anyone to prove what eBrown does or does not want despite his many attempts to assert what others do or do not want.
0 Replies
 
 

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