What should be done about illegal immigration?

As someone, who has lived more than 40 zears with a wall more or less in front of my eyes, I've never thought about the aestetics of it. (And I doubt someone - be in in West or especially East Germany ever did.)

I do like, however, the art which was made of it after the Berlin (and other border walls) fall.

immigration
foxfire :
all i'm trying to say is that when one looks at the world throughout history , there have been large-scale migrations . they have had different names at different times : migration , immigration , voelkerwanderung , the vandals are coming , columbus "discovers" america ...

i can understand the frustations many u.s. citizens have with illegal immigrants . while canada has had some illegal immigrants , i don't think it's been large-scale .

short of locking up all illegal immigrants (what's the cost going to be ?) ,
is there really any way to stop them ?

while the united states may have the largest influx of people at this time , it has happened in other countries thoughout time .

i still see it as water (a wall of water ?) trying to find its way down the mountain . might it be better to channel the "water" in such a way that it does the least damage and perhaps is even useful ?

i'm sure i don't know what the answer is , but sure hope the wall doesn't break .
hbg

I'm still conflicted between Fox and hbg's ideas on illegal immigration; on the one hand, people will naturally drift towards the country that provides the best standard of living that is accessable to them. From that perspective, illegal immigration can't be stopped. On the other hand, there must be a way for government to control illegal immigration for the majority that does come into our country. It's about compromise, humanity, and the responsibility of any government to make the laws to abide by.

I certainly have no quick-fix to the illegal immigration issue. but this I believe:
1) Building taller fences and putting out National Guard troops isn't going to work;
2) Mexico is the poster child of illegal immigration. That is where "most of them" come from. Mexico and the US have to work together to improve things there. Right now, remittances from the US back to Mexico keep the economy moving. The education system sucks; the infrastructure sucks; unemployment is high. If I were a Mexican looking for survival for myself and my family, sure I would look north;
3) I did a Google search of U.S. aid to other countries. Our aid to Mexico was pretty darn small, with about half of it going to drug interdiction. The tables of numbers were a bit numbing (I can cite the source if asked) but only about 10% of what we give to Eygpt or Israel. Again. we need to rethink that and the Mexican government needs to also;
4) I have no problem with fining or even jailing executives of US companies that employ illegal workers. My issue is with the federal government saying, in effect, we have no way of tracking this, so it is your responsibility, mr/ms employer and good luck at doing what we can't do;
5) And, finally, this very sensitive issue. Immigrants (legal or illegle) are stealing jobs from Americans, it is said. The theory goes that, if they weren't here, those jobs, mowing the lawns or emtying the bedpans would go to the legions of unemployed Americans. Perhaps, but perhaps not. Certainly not at the wage rate being paid under the current situation. There is a dynamic there.

Thank you for reading this. Please don't scream at me. I am perplexed about how this whole thing could/should play out. -realjohnboy-

rjb, No jobs are being "stolen" by the illegals. The unemployment rate is currently at 4.7 percent; most economists will tell us that's "full employment."

Most of the farming, housework, and working in restaurants in our area are being accomplished by Mexicans. Whether they are legal or illegal, they are working very hard to make a sub-standard living in an area where the average income is $75,000/year. I fear most Mexicans are earning way below that "average." and probably at the state minimum of under $15,000/year. How they are able to survive on that income is a mystery where housing and other necessary cost of living is some of the highest in this country. How any can even consider sending some of the money back to Mexico is evey a greater mystery.

Like you, I'm not sure where the answer lies.

No, it isn't. You know better than this. The rate of unemployment is far higher.

Cycloptichorn

Cyclo, I hear you! I'm just quoting the numbers from the Bureau of Labor Statistics; numbers I have always questioned as unreliable, because it fails to track those no longer covered under unemployment insurance and those that quit looking for jobs that doesn't exist for them. That includes many older workers and the under-educated.

That's exactly right. But it's the under-educated who are most likely to be taking the jobs that right now go to illegals - unskilled labor. They just happen to believe that they deserve a fair wage, while the illegals will take what they can get.

Cycloptichorn

That may also be true, but I have no source to back that up.

Re: immigration


There is no doubt about the truth of what you are saying and I have no quarrel with it. In the past, when we were building our nation, we wanted lots of people to come to populate it. This is a different century and and different time with much different circumstances now. We are no longer in the building stage of our nation but we are in the maintenance, fine tuning, building of commerce and industry stage. It is important that we do things differently now lest we tear down everything we have built.

The basic principles that have always applied are still worth keeping though. Those that came before were indeed part of a melting pot merging their cultures and experience into all the others to create a uniquely American culture. Many retained an appreciaton for the 'old country and enjoyed recognizing that, but all became Americans with appreciation for our one culture, a common language, and values that have sustained a great nation. So we now have 50 states, each with certain autonomies, but all existing in harmony with none presuming to set themselves apart from any others.

So yes, let's channel that wall of water effectively, and that's what many have been suggesting here. The majority of Americans want to continue an orderly immigration policy with people applying for and going through the process for legal admission. None of us would mind if these rules were overhauled to make that process less frustrating, but we do not want the rules abolished. This is how the flood is channeled effectively and to the best benefit of everybody.

Meanwhile, most Americans seem to prefer a wall rather than many guns on the border.

Personally, I think the only way to stop the flood is to make it so inhospitable for anybody to be here illegally that they will choose the legal routes in.

Fox, The assumption that we have enough immigration now is a false assumption. To grow the economy, we need to add to our population, but at a sustainable pace.

The problems inherent in Japan and Germany are caused by their aging of the population with fewer workers to support their social benefits decreasing.

The reason the US has continued our economic expansion are two-fold; productivity gains by workers, and addition of new and younger workers through immigration/green cards.

We still have a big problem, because our government continues to spend the social security taxes as our baby-boomers are ready for retirement in a few years. The explosion of families after WWII caused this increase in birth rates.

The size of our country can accommodate more immigration, but it's up to the federal government to control it.

Um, CI, could you point out anywhere that I said we have enough immigration now? Otherwise I have no problem with your comments and I think you're right on?

I have never and do not now have any problem with LEGAL immigration. My issue is with ILLEGAL immigration and I think probably nothing anybody can say will convince me that ILLEGAL immigration is a good thing.

Fox, Confirmation of your previous post.

Bush Set To Send Guard to Border
President Bush tried to ease the worries of his Mexican counterpart yesterday as he prepared for a nationally televised address tonight unveiling a plan to send thousands of National Guard troops to help seal the nation's southern border against illegal immigrants.
(By Peter Baker, The Washington Post)

The strain that this issue is putting on the Conservatives and the Republicans is fun to watch.

The next week is going to be very interesting (in a good way).

The President's speech was better than I expected it to be though I still think he's missing the point on one or two sub-issues of the big issue. He is closer to Senate consensus than he is to House consensus, however, so we'll see how it plays out over the next few days.

Which sub-issues are those?

If Fox is talking about the over-use of the Reserves for border patrol, she's right. They're already burned out from Iraq.

Bush unveils immigration reforms
President George Bush has announced plans to introduce an additional 6,000 guards along America's border with Mexico, in a live televised address.

Mr Bush unveiled a five-point plan for reforms on immigration, an issue he said stirred "intense emotions".

As well as fortifying borders, Mr Bush said he would introduce a temporary guest-worker scheme, and allow some illegal immigrants to become citizens.

Analysts say Mr Bush was trying to appeal to opposing sides of the debate.

They say he was trying to appease both grass-roots conservative Republicans and the country's growing number of Hispanics.

There are an estimated 11.5 million illegal immigrants in the US, about half of them of Mexican origin.

'Time of decision'

Mr Bush's live prime-time address began with a hiccup when a last-minute rehearsal was accidentally broadcast.


US ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS
About 11.5m illegal immigrants in the US
Four out of 10 have been in US five years or less
75% were born in Latin America
Most enter via southern US border
California, Texas and Florida host most illegal immigrants
Many work in agriculture, transport and construction

Once the speech was under way, Mr Bush said the country had in recent weeks seen the emotions stirred by immigration on display as millions of immigrants and supporters took to the street to protest against plans to criminalise illegal immigrants.

"In Washington, the debate over immigration reform has reached a time of decision," he told viewers.

Mr Bush said that illegal immigrants put strain on services and resources, and raised crime.

"The vast majority of immigrants are decent people," he said, "but they are beyond the reach and protection of American law."

He said his reform objectives included:

* Securing US borders : The number of border guards would increase by 6,000 to 15,000. National Guards would be sent until extra guards could be trained, but they would not undertake direct law enforcement. Hi-tech fences, border patrol roads, and motion sensors would be installed. Steps would be taken to speed up deportation, such as increaing the number of beds in detention centres and expediting legal procedures.

* A temporary worker programme which would match "honest immigrants" with jobs that employers could not find Americans to do. The workers would have to return to their country of origin after a specified time.

* New ID cards for legal foreign workers , to include biometric technology, would be introduced in order to ensure that emnployers could verify they were hiring legal workers.

* Providing illegal immigrants with a chance of citizenship . Mr Bush said this was "not an amnesty" but a "rational middle ground between granting an automatic path to citizenship for every illegal immigrant and a programme of mass deportation." He said applicants would have to pay a penalty for breaking the law, pay taxes, and learn English, and would have to "wait in line" behind legal migrants.

* Encouraging immigrants to assimilate , to learn English "and embrace our common identity as Americans".

Mr Bush appealed to Congress to help him pass his plans into law. The whole two-year package will cost about $1.9 billion.

He insisted the US "is not going to militarise the southern border" - a nod to concerns raised by the Mexican President Vicente Fox.

The immigration issue has sparked fierce debate in the US and is high on the agenda as Republicans seek to retain control of Congress in November's mid-term elections. Before the deployment plan was announced, some Republicans defended the proposal, while others from both major parties questioned whether such a move would overstretch the US military.

The speech comes as Congress considers plans to reform immigration laws.

Last week the House of Representatives backed an amendment to another bill allowing the military to be used for border issues.

A bill passed last year by the House includes provisions to make illegal immigration a felony and to bolster border security.

However a Senate bill, currently stalled, would allow illegal immigrants to apply for citizenship and set up a guest worker programme, as is favoured by Mr Bush.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/4774639.stm

I'm sure that Bush wishes these people would just go back to Immigra where they came from.

Cycloptichorn