What should be done about illegal immigration?

el_pohl wrote:

Guys, we agree that stubborn people are a pain. That said, I don't know who is correct in this musical debate, but unfortunately it's not healthy in this marvelous thread. Which, I hope, will come to an end anytime this year with around 300 pages, if we are lucky. Starting a new one is suggested.

Anyways, checking El Universal - one of the top selling mexican diaries - I have come up with the following information. Translated by yours truly, so... might be kind of funky. As a sidenote, its stressing that my sources are all in spanish. Even more when they quote the NY Times, because... I don't have a subscription on nytimes.com.

- The boycott that we all know will also take place in Mexico. People are encouraging the citizens not to buy any american made product. Think Coca-Cola, Pepsi, McDonald's, Burger King, Domino's Pizza, Starbuck's, etc. Estimated loses: $400,000 million pesos. For those that are not paranoid about the daily currency exchange (like me), thats a little below $40,000 million dollars.

- According to "Parametría", mexican statistics company, 81% of mexicans IN Mexico support the boycott. Surprisingly 62% would support a similar act of centroamericans in Mexico (I highly doubt this), and 58% actually know the reasons why latinos are protesting in the US. Guess they need to read the news more often. Poll was done with an example of 1,000 people on last week.

- Inmigrant defending organization in the US have been taken measures on the possible consequences of the boycott... protecting illegal employees hired on illegal working companies, that is. Most of this companies have granted special permits, while some of them are even closing for the day. The lost work shifts will need to be covered on extraordinary schedules. I guess that means byebye to the 8 hours of sleep suggested.

- For example. Robert Palmer, marketing director of McDonalds on the Baltimore/Washington regions, said that the company "supports the migration reform", and that the employees can participate in the 1st of may activities without worries.

- At the same time, the MALDEF (Mexican-American Law Defense and Education Fund... or similar) is providing legal assistance through a hotline for undocumented inmigrants. On their website they are warning that: "if you don't receive permission by your employer, and if you haven't been authorized the day off, you run the risk for getting fired for absenting (does that word exist?) without previous warning or notification".

- Finally, the NT Times said in a recent editorial that the "giant has awakened". The diary considers that, although mass movement is required to reach their goals, it needs to be cautios. After comparing the civil movement to that of the early 60's, the diary states that some defenders of the inmigration cause have disagreed on the boycott, opting for more pacific approaches. According to this defenders, "although inmigrants have the right of conducting pressure acts like the ones scheduled, they should avoid inflicting pain to the US through a boycott 'to prove how much they love' their country".

El Universal

Interesting stuff el_Pohl. You seem to be at least a little skeptical that the Mexican media gets it 100% right. Of course many of us think the NY Times and many other US media sources are not reliable to tell it like it is.

Virtually all or perhaps all McDonalds restaurants in the US are franchised to private owners controlling small corporations, each owning one to a dozen or two or so stores. Very few private owners around here will appreciate their employees walking off the job Monday, much less encourage them to do so. Those warning illegals not to intentionally inflict harm upon their host country I think are giving very good advice. Most of us do have compassion for the plight of a person who just wants a better life for himself/herself, and that will play a huge part in ensuring that whatever new policy is adopted, there will be some humanity and some compassion built into it.

But too many more pictures of what appear to be illegals taunting Americans with the US flag displayed upside down, Mexican (or other nations) flags waved in defiance, and boasts of "we'll take back the country" and cries of "Viva La Raza" could cause that sympathy to evaporate very quickly. Certainly boycotting the very businesses that have been supporting them is not a good idea.

The best scenario for everybody is to work together to come up with the best possible solution for all.

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Foxfyre wrote:

SierraSong wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Oh, and welcome SierraSong.

Well, thanks.

Not that it matters, but I'm a she...

And, thanks for clearing up that matter of the civil rights thing with pohl. You understood my meaning perfectly.

Well, survival on A2K sometimes requires a bullet proof vest and a really good bullshit detector, but there are quite a few reasonable people here whether or not we agree on a particular issue. El_Pohl is one of them.

But from now on you are a SHE!!!! You are woman. Hear you roar!

Interesting, shouldn't she be La_Pohl then?

¿Foxfyre, habla español?

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What utter bullshit:

Quote:

The best scenario for everybody is to work together to come up with the best possible solution for all.

In other words, just stay in your place. Gosh, the last thing this country needs is "uppity wetbacks!"

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Roxxxanne wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
SierraSong wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Oh, and welcome SierraSong.

Well, thanks.

Not that it matters, but I'm a she...

And, thanks for clearing up that matter of the civil rights thing with pohl. You understood my meaning perfectly.

Well, survival on A2K sometimes requires a bullet proof vest and a really good bullshit detector, but there are quite a few reasonable people here whether or not we agree on a particular issue. El_Pohl is one of them.

But from now on you are a SHE!!!! You are woman. Hear you roar!

Interesting, shouldn't she be La_Pohl then?

¿Foxfyre, habla español?

My comment was directed to SierraSong. Why should she be "la'_Pohl when el_Pohl lives in Mexico and I assume is a he? (I could be wrong about that too though.) SierraSong says she is a she and lives in Texas. I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve her. My point was that I believe el_Pohl misunderstood Sierra's intent with a previous post, but it certainly does not negate el_Pohl's contributions here that I think have been quite reasonable and informative.

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I thought the post was referring to el_pohl as a woman not sierra song.

Never mind.

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Roxxxanne wrote:

What utter bullshit:

Quote:
The best scenario for everybody is to work together to come up with the best possible solution for all.

In other words, just stay in your place. Gosh, the last thing this country needs is "uppity wetbacks!"

Could you explain how your translate 'working together' into 'uppity wetbacks?' I'll admit the transition mystifies me.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Roxxxanne wrote:
What utter bullshit:

Quote:
The best scenario for everybody is to work together to come up with the best possible solution for all.

In other words, just stay in your place. Gosh, the last thing this country needs is "uppity wetbacks!"

Could you explain how your translate 'working together' into 'uppity wetbacks?' I'll admit the transition mystifies me.

Your idea of "working together" is that undocumneted workers remain in their subjugated position. It is exactly the same position racist whites took toward blacks. You don't even see this as a civil rights issue. It is obvious where you are coming from.

Quote:

But too many more pictures of what appear to be illegals taunting Americans with the US flag displayed upside down, Mexican (or other nations) flags waved in defiance, and boasts of "we'll take back the country" and cries of "Viva La Raza" could cause that sympathy to evaporate very quickly. Certainly boycotting the very businesses that have been supporting them is not a good idea.

¿Me entiende?

¿Habla español?

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The illegal immigration issue is not a black and white issue. It has to do with many variables of which most have missed, but some have hinted at.

Illegal immigration is a federal issue; our congress is now working on legislation that will impact illegal immigrants one way or another.

IMHO, the best result will be to keep most in our country through worker permits and time requirements. The reasons are very simple; most are hard workers that work in our restaurants, housekeeping, childcare, janitorial, gardening, construction, harvesting/farming, maid service, and all those "other" jobs most American citizens will not do. Immigration is necessary for our country to remain competitive in the world markets, to keep the cost of consumer goods affordable, and to maintain our growth in our GDP at about 3 percent/year. The reason many European countries are falling behind in their economic growth is the aging of their population while their birth rates stagnate. There is no possible way to sustain their senior's social benefits with less workers. Even Japan has that handicap, and their economic competitiveness has been struggling for over a decade now.

It's a win-win situation for our country if we keep most of them here; but deporting all illegal immigrants is the most damaging to our country, and the most ignorant action our government can take.

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Roxxxanne wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Roxxxanne wrote:
What utter bullshit:

Quote:
The best scenario for everybody is to work together to come up with the best possible solution for all.

In other words, just stay in your place. Gosh, the last thing this country needs is "uppity wetbacks!"

Could you explain how your translate 'working together' into 'uppity wetbacks?' I'll admit the transition mystifies me.

Your idea of "working together" is that undocumneted workers remain in their subjugated position. It is exactly the same position racist whites took toward blacks. You don't even see this as a civil rights issue. It is obvious where you are coming from.

Quote:
But too many more pictures of what appear to be illegals taunting Americans with the US flag displayed upside down, Mexican (or other nations) flags waved in defiance, and boasts of "we'll take back the country" and cries of "Viva La Raza" could cause that sympathy to evaporate very quickly. Certainly boycotting the very businesses that have been supporting them is not a good idea.

¿Me entiende?

¿Habla español?

And your idea of what my idea is or what I intend is simply full of it. But you are right that I do not see this as a civil rights issue and I think those who are attempting to make it a racial issue will incur far more resentment than cooperation. I see it as a matter of law. And I think I am in a pretty strong majority in that point of view.

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Foxfyre wrote:

And your idea of what my idea is or what I intend is simply full of it. But you are right that I do not see this as a civil rights issue and I think those who are attempting to make it a racial issue will incur far more resentment than cooperation. I see it as a matter of law. And I think I am in a pretty strong majority in that point of view.

When your "pretty strong majority" passes HR4437, then I will admit you are right. And it is your side who is increasingly making this a racial issue.

I don't think your so-called majority is either very strong, nor very pretty.

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In fact, here is Scott Rasmussen's take on the public attitude at this time:

April 27, 2006
Immigration Issue Could Lead to 3rd Party Candidate
- by Scott Rasmussen

Over the past generation, Republicans and Democrats have battled to a draw on issues ranging from taxes to abortion. Both sides have poll-tested, focus-grouped, nuanced answers for these issues and supporters have lined up with the party of their choice.

Even the War on Iraq takes place against a political backdrop that all participants in the process understand--Democrats need to oppose the War while fighting a perception that they are weak on national security. Republicans want to focus on the global threat of terrorism rather than specifics in Iraq.

Immigration is entirely different.

It's not the most important issue to voters (except in a few Southwestern States) but it could shake up the nation's political equilibrium more than the economy, Iraq, or any other contemporary issue. Our latest polling shows that a pro-enforcement third party candidate could attract more support than a generic Republican presidential candidate in 2008 (and also be tied with the Democrats). Conservatives divide equally between Republicans and the third party candidate. Moderates divide equally between Democrats and the third party candidate. (This should be taken as an indication of the issue's power rather than a literal projection of election outcomes).

The issue has power because politicians from both parties have ignored it for a long time and haven't begun to figure out the nuances or context of the debate.

Most current discussion by elected officials starts with a focus on illegal aliens. For most voters, that's letting the tail wag the dog.

The best place to start is with the bigger picture where most Americans agree. We've been polling state-by-state on this issue all month and consistently find agreement on a few key points.

1. Most Americans in all states want a welcoming national immigration policy that lets our nation assimilate new people into the national melting pot. Our polls have consistently found strong support for a policy goal that welcomes everybody except criminals, national security, threats, and those who want to live off our welfare system.

2. Just as important, most Americans also want a policy that emphasizes enforcement first. They want the nation to gain control of its borders and enforce existing laws before other reforms are considered.

3. As a pragmatic step to support the first two points, most Americans want to build a barrier along the Mexican border.

These goals are not at all contradictory. In fact, they flow naturally from the fact that we are a nation of immigrants, a nation of laws, and a nation of pragmatic problem solvers.

Where does this leave the 11 million or so illegal immigrants living and working in the USA? Unfortunately, they are the pawns in the current debate, but not the central issue.

Let's hope there's a leader out there ready to focus on the bigger picture of the immigration debate... a picture that is welcoming, enforceable, and enforced.

If that person doesn't step forward, it's easy to envision an outcome that only a political junkie could love. Imagine that the nation remains bitterly divided between Republicans and Democrats. Then, a 3rd party candidate campaigns on immigration, picks up a few Southwestern states, and prevents either party's Presidential nominee from winning a majority of the Electoral College. Not a pretty picture.
SOURCE

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This is the dream of every liberal progressive voter in the country.

TANCREDO!!!!!

<<It thrills me to even think about a Tancredo third party candidate>>

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ebrown_p wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

And your idea of what my idea is or what I intend is simply full of it. But you are right that I do not see this as a civil rights issue and I think those who are attempting to make it a racial issue will incur far more resentment than cooperation. I see it as a matter of law. And I think I am in a pretty strong majority in that point of view.

When your "pretty strong majority" passes HR4437, then I will admit you are right. And it is your side who is increasingly making this a racial issue.

I don't think your so-called majority is either very strong, nor very pretty.

No it is not my party that is making this a racial issue. The Democrats are doing their damndest to try to make it look like the Republicans are racist, however. This also is not ocnducive to finding reasonable solutions to very real problems.

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Quote:

MIAMI (AP) - Rumors of immigration roundups have prompted thousands of illegal immigrants to stay home this week and are making some afraid to participate in a national immigration protest planned for Monday.
[...]
Len Mills, executive vice president of the Associated General Contractors of South Florida, said he estimated at least 50 percent of workers on construction jobs in the region hadn't shown up for work. He said he believed even some legal workers were afraid.

"This is costing millions of dollars a day, and I don't know who is going to pay for it," he said.

Source

Does this really mean that 50% of construction workers (in South Florida) are illegally employed?

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Foxfyre wrote:

No it is not my party that is making this a racial issue.

I didn't say "party", I said "side". After all, John McCain is a Republican, and Bush is a moderate (compared to you) on this issue.

Racist groups are certainly on your side on this one. This is the number one issue for the KKK (go look at their website if you don't believe this).

Of course not all on your side are part of a racist group. But, the rhetoric of racist groups is creeping into the mainstream. How often have you heard the rhetoric of "race war" being stoked by anti-immigrant commentators-- where, like the Jews of old, the Mexicans are planning to take over the country and subvert American values.

In my opinion, the attack on multiculturalism is a thin disguise for racism. The idea is that if you don't look and act like I think an American should look and act... you won't be accepted.

My favorite politician... Tom Tancredo... is publishing a book on how "other cultures" are threatening the American way of life.

It is in the interest of your side of the debate to dehumanize immigrant. Calling them "illegals" is a good start. If you don't consider them human, then you don't need to worry about decency and compassion.

Then you are right that it is ONLY a matter of law.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Very few private owners around here will appreciate their employees walking off the job Monday, much less encourage them to do so.

That might be different from state to state or even county to county.

Quote:

Jose Torres, owner of Taqueria El Meson in Cicero, figures he'll lose several thousand dollars in restaurant and catering receipts on Monday but says he'll close his restaurant to support his employees, many of whom are marching. In fact, Torres says he plans to join them downtown.
[...]
Lettuce Entertain You's more than 50 restaurants affected by the march are expected to use managers to cover some of the absent employees' duties so they can remain open.

"We're supportive of the cause and doing everything we can to accommodate our employees," said Kevin Brown, chairman and CEO of Chicago-based Lettuce Entertain You Enterprises. "We have a large Hispanic work force, and they are a part of the fiber of our community."
[...]
The Illinois Restaurant Association didn't have any figures on how many restaurants might close Monday, but association president Colleen McShane said the group supports efforts to reform the immigration system and provide undocumented immigrants with legal status.

The National Restaurant Association estimates 1.5 million of the industry's 12.5 million workers are foreign-born.

"We sympathize and understand our employees' frustration with an immigration system that is broken, and we want them to know we support them," McShane said.

source: Chicago Sun-Times, Sunday April 30, print edition, page 11A
Online version

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Quote:
MIAMI (AP) - Rumors of immigration roundups have prompted thousands of illegal immigrants to stay home this week and are making some afraid to participate in a national immigration protest planned for Monday.
[...]
Len Mills, executive vice president of the Associated General Contractors of South Florida, said he estimated at least 50 percent of workers on construction jobs in the region hadn't shown up for work. He said he believed even some legal workers were afraid.

"This is costing millions of dollars a day, and I don't know who is going to pay for it," he said.
Source

Does this really mean that 50% of construction workers (in South Florida) are illegally employed?

I didn't take it that way, but I don't know what the situation is in South Florida.

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From a commentary by Neil Steinberg (page 18A print version):

Quote:

We have a chance, Monday, to stand up for those who are not in some foreign country, but right here, right now, living all too often in the shadows as second class non-citizens. We can treat them properly or ship them back -- actually, we can't ship them back, so the only question is: When will we treat them properly? This year? Next year? Never?

That's what the march is about. I'm going to be there Monday. Will you?

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Good evening to yall on the day before what could be a momentous day. I will stop by the McDonald's on Route 29 tomorrow for the two sausage biscuits for $2 normally served up by Hispanic workers.
Some of yall have been firing barbs at each other for many of the last pages. A bit tedious to read. Foxfyre wrote something to the effect that "...this is not conducive to finding real solutions to very real problems." I can certainly agree with that.
This started out as a poll. You can see how it was phrased at the top of this page. #1, #2 and #6 are absurd. #3 is not plausible. #4, as worded, is probably unconstituitional and #5 is so vague as to being meaningless.
The lady from the restaurant association has it right: an immigration system that is broken.

Walter, I don't know about construction in Florida. I recently built a townhouse project and there were a lot of Hispanics. No, strike that. There were a lot of people who, what, didn't look like me (or converse with each other in English)? I don't have an answer for you.

And, finally, to Cicerone, who posted a thoughtful comment except for one phrase which, perhaps, I am taking out of context: immigrant labor helps "to keep the cost of consumer goods affordable."
Thank yall for taking the time to read this.

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realjohnboy wrote:

Foxfyre wrote something to the effect that "...this is not conducive to finding real solutions to very real problems." I can certainly agree with that.

Horsepucky!

Foxfyre is the one who hasn't offered any real solutions (or any unreal ones for that matter).

I have been offering a very real solution from the beginning of this thread-- that is what was originally called the McCain-Kennedy bill and has now morphed into the Senate bill (as opposed to the House bill). This bill offers a path to earned citizenship to those who are here illegally now, haven't broken any laws other than crossing a border, and will learn English and civics.

Foxfyre doesn't like this compromise solution. But she has yet (after hundreds of posts) to offer any alternative.

Mysteryman, way back when, offered the alternative solution. He wants us to round up anyone who is here illegally and ship them out of the country. He will back this up by closing off all services to them and their families so that the ones the authorites can't find will be basically starved out of the country.

These are two alternatives on the table.

I think I have staked my position quite succinctly. Mysterman did too (and I disagree, but I respect him for it).

Foxfyre is the one who refuses to find a solution. She continues to whine about "difficult problems" but refuses to take any kind of positive stand other than criticize the reasonable position that is on the table and the people who support it.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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