What should be done about illegal immigration?

@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

You crack me up Cylco,

You post one thing that could possibly be called a "fact", just one... which happens to be a second hand cite from a wikipedia article. This fact is that Wikipedia says that a Mexican Civil Rights organization says that people don't trust the police.

Read the original article yourself. Perhaps you are unaware of 'links' and how they work? This information was easy for you to find.

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacion/164447.html

Quote:

From this you are willing to say that Mexico is an "uncivilized", "bandit nation" with "no law" where you can't report crime. (And you think it is strange that as someone who actually knows what life is like in this place you are describing would object to this".

Then you say "the facts speak for themselves"?

I didn't state that there was 'no law' or that you couldn't 'report crime.' I said that you can't trust the police to enforce the law, so people don't report crime. There is a significant difference, as I'm sure you know.

You owe it to your own arguments to report what I said accurately.

I base my opinion not only on some article I've read, but my own personal experiences in the country and first-hand reports from people I know and trust. What are you going to say to try and take away the legitimacy of those sources? That I can't use my experiences or those of people I know in order to form opinions? And that I can't use statistics from Mexico's own organization on human rights to back up my belief that these experiences are not unique?

You're out on a limb here and not making a strong case for your position, but I think that you knew that before making your last post.

Cycloptichorn

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@Pemerson,

The State Dept. has some good information re the depth and types of crime to watch for in Mexico. You might risk offending him if you suggest it, but it's probably better to be safe and aware than suffer a (potential) surprise assault.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_970.html

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@Irishk,

It is a sad irony--

Travel is the best way to open one's mind, but the people who most need of an open mind are too afraid to risk it.

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@ebrown p,

Plenty of people are willing to take the risks. We stayed at an all-inclusive in Jamaica and were warned to not leave the compound (by the Jamaicans lol).

We had a blast in Cancun, but were aware that there was the potential our safety could be compromised. Had we become victims, I'm sure the State Dept. would have said, "well, we told you"!

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@Irishk,

Just heard from son. He says, basically, that laws aren't enforced and criminals seldom get caught.

Mostly because law enforcement jobs are low paying, corruption is rampant, and they don't seem to have any investigative techniques to seek out, take down criminals, said he.

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@Irishk,

I think your estimation of risk is pretty off kilter; which do you think is more risky, driving a car for a year-- or spending a couple of weeks as an American tourist in Mexico a year?

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@Pemerson,

That pretty much confirms what the travel-advisory says -- that crime in much of the country is pervasive and victims can't always count on the authorities for help.

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@ebrown p,

You're the one who mentioned the risk factor. I was just responding that I and plenty of others are willing to take the risk in order to travel. I'm frequently off-kilter, though, so you're right about that LOL.

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@Irishk,

Quote:

That pretty much confirms what the travel-advisory says -- that crime in much of the country is pervasive and victims can't always count on the authorities for help.

Where in the travel advisory does it say this? The travel advisory suggests that crimes be reported to local authorities.

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@ebrown p,

Just to summarize... I am not saying that Mexico is a perfect paradise with no crime.

All I am saying is that the idea that Mexico is a uncivilized, corrupt den of crimes with no laws or law enforcement is nothing but paranoid fantasy.

The truth is in the middle.

There are really dangerous countries to visit that far outweigh the crime and corruption of Mexico. I spent time in Guatemala-- I was careful when I was there... I didn't travel after dark, and I made sure I knew where I was going and didn't flash my impressive jewelry. Guatemala is, by any rational measure, far more dangerous than Mexico... the risks of me being a victim of crime was still fairly low and the experience far exceeded the risk.

The fact is the risk that an individual American tourist in Mexico will be a victim of violent crime is very low-- as I implied before, it is far lower than your risk of dying in a car crash this year.

So, all I am saying is not to exaggerate.

Mexico is not the United States. Anyone will tell you this. But there are millions of American tourists who visit Mexico every year without incident, and there are millions of middle-class families who live decent lives year round in Mexico; they go to school, have businesses, get married, buy ice cream, visit museums without being victims of crime.

It is the completely unrealistic exaggerated dire picture of Mexico that I am trying (as someone who has personal experience with the country) to correct.

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@ebrown p,

I'm not going to go back and read the entire advisory, but I'm pretty sure it warns that the authorities are not always effective in preventing crimes against tourists...some may even be participants.

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Here is a very interesting piece, which focuses on Europe, that is somewhat pro-immigration. The key for all countries is that they should promote skill-based immigration.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/233842

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@Irishk,

Where'd you stay in Jamaica? We were just in Negril and had a fabulous and safe time - not one worry.

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I've also been to Cozumel, Akumal, Playa del Carmen, Puebla, and Mexico City. Can't speak to whether the laws are enforced since I didn't break any but I felt safe, and had no worries. It may well be unsafe in some areas, but we weren't there, didn't flaunt our wealth, and stayed out of dodgy neighbourhoods.

However, would I travel around Mexico for six months alone or with a girlfriend? No, don't think so. But I can say that about a lot of places.

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@Mame,

We stayed at an adults-only Sandals resort in Negril. Had a great time.... Birthday surprise for Mr.Irish!

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I can't believe this thread has lasted this long.

What should be done about illegal immigration?

Stop it because it is ILLEGAL.

would there be 7,000 replies to a thread entitled:

What should be done about illegal sex trafficking...killing of children...robbing convenience stores...dumping toxic wastes in public waters...running red lights?

By definition, it is illegal.

All well and good for those who want to argue that a bad law should be dismissed, providing they are OK with the same attitude towards laws they believe are good.

If you have some sort of moral obligation to flaunt immigration laws because your personal world view thus informs you, why isn't the personal world view of someone who thinks it is his or her moral obligation to flaunt any other law (irrespective of whether or not you see it has virtuous) just as rational?

There are immigration laws. Flaunt them if you will, but how do you argue there is a difference between you and someone who flaunts civil rights laws?

Because you are right and they are wrong?

This is why we have laws.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Stop it because it is ILLEGAL.

Amen. I have had the same thought about this thread, Finn, thinking what an inane waste of time to debate such a simple question, what a bunch of idiots there are anymore!! I actually contemplated posting much the same opinion as you just did. But I decided not to, because I knew it would only be a few minutes before somebody posted thumbs down on my post and accused me of being a right wing radical or - perish the thought, an "idealogue." Or if it happened to be ebrown or O'Bill taking a look, they probably would post another accusation of me being a bigot or a racist!

Even George has accused me on another thread of being an "idealogue," and appealing to extremes or some such thing. It is extreme anymore to have common sense, Finn!!

1 Reply

@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

I can't believe this thread has lasted this long.

What should be done about illegal immigration?

Stop it because it is ILLEGAL.

would there be 7,000 replies to a thread entitled:

What should be done about illegal sex trafficking...killing of children...robbing convenience stores...dumping toxic wastes in public waters...running red lights?

Probably not... which seems to indicate "illegal imigration" isn't as broadly agreed upon.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

There are immigration laws. Flaunt them if you will, but how do you argue there is a difference between you and someone who flaunts civil rights laws?

Perhaps it would be more akin to flaunting pre-civil rights laws? You know, like people having the gall to perform marriages between whites and non-whites, despite it being "ILLEGAL!" They naturally argued there was nothing inherently racist in the law, because it was applied evenly to whites and non-whites alike.

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Because you are right and they are wrong?

Pretty much... yes.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

We all know it's illegal, that there are laws against it. What would YOU do to enforce the laws regarding illegal immigration - other than what is already being done?

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@okie,

okie wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Stop it because it is ILLEGAL.

Amen. I have had the same thought about this thread, Finn, thinking what an inane waste of time to debate such a simple question, what a bunch of idiots there are anymore!! I actually contemplated posting much the same opinion as you just did. But I decided not to, because I knew it would only be a few minutes before somebody posted thumbs down on my post and accused me of being a right wing radical or - perish the thought, an "idealogue." Or if it happened to be ebrown or O'Bill taking a look, they probably would post another accusation of me being a bigot or a racist!

Even George has accused me on another thread of being an "idealogue," and appealing to extremes or some such thing. It is extreme anymore to have common sense, Finn!!

I seriously doubt you'll find solidarity from Finn. Dude reasons out his positions for himself and happens to lean heavily conservative. This bears little resemblance to the Wing-nut parroting of whatever Rush or Beck are hollering about at the moment you do. You are the Right-wing JTT… who Finn hilariously dubbed Remora last year.

1 Reply

What should be done about illegal immigration?

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