What should be done about illegal immigration?

@cicerone imposter,

The legal quota would accomplish a proper balancing of our population. Unfortunately, a staggering number of illegals are pouring in, with the vast majority of them relatively uneducated and lacking in needed skills. Also, you have the situation of family members of citizens also pouring in, most not having the money and skills we could use.

I agree with what you say about our educational system. However, I think that very little will be done to significantly improve it. Governments just don't have the money, especially now with the economic meltdown. In the Carolinas, they are laying off or otherwise cutting back on teachers, staff, equipment, and facilities.

1 Reply

@Advocate,

How much education and skills does one need to work on our farms and restaurants?

Don't you find it strange that we see very few whites working on our farms and restaurants? How are they taking away jobs? If they are not available, our farms and restaurants will be out of business.

When I go to Home Depot, I see Hispanics waiting to find a little bit of any work rain or shine; I have never seen whites out there. How come? How are they taking away jobs from whites?

BTW, many of those Hispanics now work as cooks at different culture restaurants. They are hard workers and deserve those promotions to higher paying jobs. Also, the restaurants that I have frequented over the years, the same Hispanic workers are there; the turnover rate is very low, and that's good for business.

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@cicerone imposter,

It's like this c.i. And it's dead easy to follow even with your attention span which I do believe can't last from one end of a sentence to the other.

If you have an educational system in which everybody majors in an 'ology or gets a degree or a diploma because all the mums and dads are appeased by them you get a workforce in which they all have to have a "good" job. And those "good" jobs have to be created. Hence fossil hunting and art shops etc.

Hence, the "nasty" jobs have to be done by others. Hence immigration. Or the **** piles up. It takes about a week to become intolerable.

So your dumbing down of education so that everybody is a success is the driving dynamic of immigration.

See how easy it is? Can you not invent a spray that makes immigrants invisible then you could get the **** cleaned up at bargain prices thus leaving you with a surplus from your income to buy cruises and other gee-gaws and not have to look at them.

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@spendius,

You make a good point Spendi, but I still think we should be recruiting the brightest and best from other places to come to America. Make those 'grundge' jobs attractive enough with decent wages and benefits, and you'll have college graduates applying for them. Okay so we pay a bit more for a head of lettuce or a pound of hamburger, but you also have working, productive people paying taxes which means the government should require less of my money for its own purposes. It's all a trade off. We don't have to import people and make quasi-slaves out of them to serve the rich. I think it is not a good thing to do that.

One example are those Nebraska meat packing plants that were raided awhile back. They were employing a lot of illegals that were arrested and sent home which left the meat packing plant short of a lot of labor. How did they deal with it? They raised their wage scale $10/hour and advertised and immediately received dozens of applicatons for every job they had to fill. The legal folks working there benefitted. The new hires benefitted. And the community benefitted with a more affluent tax base. I pay a few cents more for a chuck roast, but that's okay.

For some of the temporary employment, I think we'll still need some guest workers and I am all for a comprehensive guest worker program where folks who want the work can come in, get the job done, and then go home.

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Quote:

The new hires benefitted.

WHAT!!?? Working in a meat plant for $10 an hour is benefitting? Now that's what I call patronising. It's as bad as the Lady of the Manor pontificating about work never killing anybody. Oh no--not bloody much.

I bet you earn a lot more than that.

And the $10 is taxed as are a number of the things it buys.

And I bet your hands are not bright red and full of cuts and grazes from chopping sides of beef up with a cleaver at O degrees Farenheit for 8 hours a day.

I know it is very hard for you to face up to the simple fact that you and your certificated peers are the main driving dynamic of immigration by the very fact of your certification, which had to be made easy as I explained, and the high social esteem which it brings and the joys of it you promote at every opportunity you get, but really you should try.

The silly sods on the evolution argument want to make everybody into a scientist and then scientists will be ten a penny and they won't be so special anymore.

I'm beginning to wonder if the US has a bloody educational system. When nominal beta minuses like farmerman&Co post in epsilon plus mode it makes an outside observer wonder.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendi, You never understand anything of substance: the world is now in a great recession and at a point where even college grads can't find jobs. They're still not fighting or making any effort to take those jobs on farms or in the restaurants.

You lack any observation skills, because your world is limited to your bedroom and the local pub.

Your idiotic idea about a spray to make immigrants invisible shows your lack of common sense or reality.

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@cicerone imposter,

I should have said that your attention span can't last from phrase to phrase or possibly even from word to word.

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@spendius,

They pay a lot more than $10/hour Spendi. They RAISED the wages by $10/hour, not raised the wages TO $10/hour. They made low wage jobs into jobs that would support a family, allow folks to buy a house, pay school taxes, and become productive citizens of the community. That wasn't happening with hundreds of illegals in those jobs.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

They pay a lot more than $10/hour Spendi. They RAISED the wages by $10/hour, not raised the wages TO $10/hour. They made low wage jobs into jobs that would support a family, allow folks to buy a house, pay school taxes, and become productive citizens of the community. That wasn't happening with hundreds of illegals in those jobs.

Do you have a source for that?
(I've only the info by the Center for Immigration Studies at hand.)
Thanks.

Edit: some more info by the Nebraska State Paper

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

I'm sorry I misread the figures as my mistake gave you too easy an out. The substance still stands.

We had it here. That's why we have these large communities of immigrants. We actually advertised for them to come here in their own countries. There were many jobs we wouldn't do. We considered them demeaning. If you over qualify too many people it is inevitable. A few exceptions prove nothing.

The very programmes and movies you sell to the world paint such a picture of the US that they motivate people to want to live there. It's a nouveau riche weakness. It's like the journalist who writes about the unspoilt beaches on his holidays and the next year there's thousands of hairy-arsed tourists in saggy jeans and eating out of paper bags in the street looking for unspoilt beaches.

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UFCW Union Press release wrote:

For Immediate Release: Media Contact:
March 19, 2009 Scott Frotman 202-466-1537

NEW CIS STUDY DEMONSTRATES A COMPLETE LACK OF
KNOWLEDGE ABOUT MEATPACKING INDUSTRY

UFCW cites serious flaws in group’s analysis of historical industry data and finds its conclusion about Swift raids absurd

The United Food and Commercial Workers International Union (UFCW), the largest meatpacking and processing union in North America, released the following statement today in response to serious flaws in a new report by the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) regarding immigration enforcement efforts at meatpacking facilities:

“Mark Twain once noted, ‘Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.’ This new report by the Center for Immigration Studies is a case study in the misinterpretation and manipulation of data to reach a totally biased and flawed conclusion.

“The report demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about the history of the meatpacking industry. Throughout history, immigrants from across the globe have helped strengthen the U.S. meatpacking industry by organizing around increased wages and improved industry standards.

“During the 1980’s, consolidation, mergers and company induced strikes helped drive down wages. Employers forced workers onto the streets to fight unacceptable concessions.. During the strikes, companies aggressively recruited strike breakers"who were not immigrants but individuals who came from the decimated farm industry"to cross the picket lines. Many of these workers soon realized that the jobs were too difficult, particularly at the wages companies were offering, and they left the industry. But the damage was done. Ever since that time, the UFCW has been fighting to rebuild wages and standards for these jobs.

“In the case of Swift, the UFCW had negotiated wage increases prior to the raid. This fact disproves CIS’ central argument that wages and benefits increased as a result of a change in workforce at the plant.

“In addition to these historical inaccuracies, the CIS report fails to address the devastating impact that the Swift raid had on thousands of workers "both immigrant and native born. In the aftermath of the raid, the UFCW documented numerous examples of racial profiling, U.S. citizens harassed and detained by armed agents and a sheer disregard for the constitutional rights of
workers.

“The UFCW filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of these raids and formed a commission to examine the ramification of ICE raids, including Swift. A report documenting the commission’s findings will be made public in the next few months.

“The raids at Swift, and across the country, have done nothing to protect workers or to raise standards in our industries. They have done nothing to address our broken immigration system.. They have been a complete travesty of justice.

“If our immigration system is going to work for the benefit and betterment of our nation it is critical that our laws are upheld. That applies to both immigrant workers and government agents. If the last eight years have shown us anything, it is that enforcement-only strategies do not work. Yes, we need enforcement, but to truly reform our immigration system, we need to
address trade relationships, workforce needs, family unification, legalization, workers’ rights and living standards, and 12 million undocumented individuals suspended on the edge of hope. And we need to do it in a comprehensive manner.

“The enforcement-only stance routinely endorsed by CIS is a short-sighted view that fails to take into account our larger national interest. It is as if they worked backwards on this report. They started from their rigid immigration stance and tried to make the facts fit their view. The problem is that it doesn’t add up. It is basically 16 pages of unproductive scapegoating, cherry picked quotes, and historical misinterpretations.

“The irony is that if you take an objective look at the data being presented, free of the author’s slanted view, it makes a pretty clear and compelling case for comprehensive immigration reform.

“There is the saying that you can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. Well, you can seek out a respected journalist to write a report for the Center for Immigration Studies, but at the end of the day you end up with the same old, tired, anti-immigrant extremist drivel.”

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@Walter Hinteler,

Your sources are sufficient. Apparently that $10/hour didn't apply to everybody--I was going by somebody who works in a small town in Nebraska who said the raids resulted in a $10 raise for him, but I believe he is a supervisor and that probably does make a difference. But he said the community was thrilled when the illegals left and those coming in are making their homes there and are getting involved in the community. He said many if not most of the new folks seem to be of Hispanic and Asian descent.

In Kansas we used to have some pretty nasty turf skirmishes between some Asian (mostly Vietnamese and Laotian) groups and Hispanic (Mexican and South American) groups competing for jobs in the meat packing plants there, but I don't think that involved much illegal immigration and they seem to have worked out their differences. The demographics of small town Western Kansas has definitely changed due to expansion of the meat packing industry there, but nobody is complaining.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

I'm sorry I misread the figures as my mistake gave you too easy an out. The substance still stands.

We had it here. That's why we have these large communities of immigrants. We actually advertised for them to come here in their own countries. There were many jobs we wouldn't do. We considered them demeaning. If you over qualify too many people it is inevitable. A few exceptions prove nothing.

The very programmes and movies you sell to the world paint such a picture of the US that they motivate people to want to live there. It's a nouveau riche weakness. It's like the journalist who writes about the unspoilt beaches on his holidays and the next year there's thousands of hairy-arsed tourists in saggy jeans and eating out of paper bags in the street looking for unspoilt beaches.

I guess I am too old school to think of any honest work, no matter what it is, as demeaning Spendi. I was raised that if it was honest, it was honorable. I am very grateful to the beautiful Mexican woman--green card, not illegal--who is willing to come clean my house when I am unable to do so. She is a pure joy and she has built her little business up to the point that she makes a lot more money than I do. Would I do what she does to earn a living? Not my cup of tea for sure but do that in lieu of not working at all? You bet. She is in no way subordinate or inferior to me.

Yes there are a lot of jobs that Americans (and probably Brits) no longer covet as we have been raised with affluence and a different set of goals for our our lives. But as a kid, I swept stores, pulled cotton, fed pigs, and baby sat to make a little money. I wouldn't choose any of those jobs now but if they paid a living wage and they were what I could get, I would not think it beneath me to do them now. I think most Americans and Brits would do jobs that 'nobody wants to do' if you make it worth their while and attractive enough.

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@Foxfyre,

What have you to say Foxy about ebrown's post?

You're just putting a cute veil over the real causes of immigration because you are a contributor yourself and probably most of your family and neighbours.

How on earth do you expect to solve such a problem by hiding it from view in a snowstorm of sophistries. Putting it on your Ignore list in effect and in such a way that some folks might not notice.

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@spendius,

Sorry you feel that way Spendi. I can't easily change my spots at this stage of the game so you'll either have to accept me for who and what I am or not.

Ebrown's post said essentially the same thing I think Walter was trying to get at with his posts. Since ebrown didn't link his source, however, I don't know if the information was developed by a pro-illegal advocacy group or from a more objective source. I acknowledge and accept that the information in it may or may not be valid, but it is shared by many who don't want to admit that enforcing laws against illegal immigration produce any benefits.

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@Foxfyre,

If you don't know who the UFCW is, you could easily Google them. They are a labor union, not a "pro-illegal advocacy" group.

Quote:

We are North America’s Neighborhood Union"1.3 million members standing together to improve the lives and livelihoods of workers, families, and communities.

http://www.ufcw.org/about_ufcw/who_we_are/

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@ebrown p,

All I said is that you didn't link the excerpt you posted ebrown. Was that FROM the UFCW site? Or from someplace else? I still don't know, but in truth don't particularly care. I accept that as their opinion. I have acknowledged that I may have misinterpreted the wage increase for the affected meat packing plants, but that does not change my opinion that those plants work as effectively using legal labor rather than illegal labor and that there are benefits inherent in that. I do not believe that the departure of the illegal labor did not result in an increase in wages at the affected meat packing plants.

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@spendius,

In summary, the USA is screwed. We really have no future, and are trumped by the Asians in every sense. We don't make anything and, basically, are content on doing each other's laundry. I feel sorry for the younger generations.

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@Advocate,

We heard that in the early 1900's; when they were saying the USA is screwed because of the Chinese and Irish and Italians and Jews.

The Nativists were wrong then.

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@ebrown p,

But mr. Scott Frotman seems to be in complete agreement with your views on Illegal immagration.

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