What should be done about illegal immigration?

Take a look at this ... I did this before they gave me Anon back. I was Stevepax.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=64331

Anon

Ah! Welcome back from vacations cjhsa!

I dont think that you would even consider humane the workstations that the US gently sends to Mexico.

As well as I dont think that any of you would pick blueberries under the sun! But, its payed in dollars, and unfortunately thats what matters to my mexican brethren.

I find it appalling that illegal immigrants come into this country and demand rights when they didn't and don't have the courage to demand rights from their birth country. If they took all this motivation they had and put it into their own country they wouldn't need to leave theirs.
I also find it amazing that US corporations are exporting jobs because they can get less expensive labor some place else and then they still jack up the prices.

Welcome to America!

Anon

I pick blueberries and other crops every summer, either from my own garden or u-pick farms. I don't do it for a living, but I do enjoy it.

You are comparing leisurely picking blueberries in your garden to performing field labor? Have you lost your mind?

Ever do it for eight to ten hours a day? Day after day after day? I have, when picking fruit was the only employment available. Once again, you demonstrate just how out of touch you are with reality which does not describe your narrow world view.

Yes anybody who has picked blueberries or strawberries or cotton or chili peppers or any other labor intensive crop all day long knows what it feels like and no, I can't imagine doing that for a living.

But if I needed a job and in absence of any other available work, I would do it until I got fired for being so slow.

In our area there are a few illegals working in the orchards and the few wine vineyards but most are working on janitorial teams, construction crews, landscape outfits, and similar type labor intensive occupations. And all of these occupations also have a lot of American citizens working in them too so it isn't a matter of 'if the illegals don't do it, nobody will.'

Nobody has yet commented on a suggested policy of sending the illegals home with the provision that their employers could bring them right back with legal work permits. Any unwilling to do that could then be deported.

Why wouldn't that work?

I commented on that so you're full of it, as usual. I asked why you thought it a good idea to reward the employers who are so largely responsible for the illegality which you deplore so loudly.

If you were slow, you wouldn't make any money doing it. You are not being honest if you say you would do this type of work for say, $4 an hour.

I would imagine there are a lot of low income American workers who might do this for a decent wage. I am guessing $10-12 an hour at the very minimum. California minimum wage is like $8 an hour.

I've got a plan for ya, Fox. Your solution seems to be to round up the "illegals," ten to twelve million of them, and, at the taxpayers' expense, ship them home, and offer a guest worker program which would entail for them the additional expense of making it back here, if they can. The employers who were responsible for the illegality in the first place, and were grossly guilty of illegality in employing them, would be rewarded, at no additional expense to themselves. The taxpayers would once again foot the bill for the entire boondoggle.

Instead, let's find them, and offer them the opportunity to stay here, contingent upon them identifying the employers who committed the gross illegality of employing them in the first place. Then we fine the bejesus out of those employers, and use the proceeds to finance the new program--all at no additional expense to the taxpayer. If it runs them out of business, tough titty, what they did was illegal. And we all know how much you hate illegality.

I've got a plan for ya, Fox. Your solution seems to be to round up the "illegals," ten to twelve million of them, and, at the taxpayers' expense, ship them home, and offer a guest worker program which would entail for them the additional expense of making it back here, if they can. The employers who were responsible for the illegality in the first place, and were grossly guilty of illegality in employing them, would be rewarded, at no additional expense to themselves. The taxpayers would once again foot the bill for the entire boondoggle.

Instead, let's find them, and offer them the opportunity to stay here, contingent upon them identifying the employers who committed the gross illegality of employing them in the first place. Then we fine the bejesus out of those employers, and use the proceeds to finance the new program--all at no additional expense to the taxpayer. If it runs them out of business, tough titty, what they did was illegal. And we all know how much you hate illegality.

I'm guessing you have never gardened.

Somebody tell Setanta that he should actually read what people write before he starts in on an insulting rant accusing them of all sorts of things they never said, never implied, never intended. He wouldn't make nearly so many idiotic mistakes.

You just noticed that?

You are certainly better qualified to speak to the issue of idiotic mistakes. You said: "Nobody has yet commented on a suggested policy of sending the illegals home with the provision that their employers could bring them right back with legal work permits." That was not true. I had commented on it. I commented on it again. Too bad it was inconvenient for your rant.

I married a transferring man and every time we moved, I had to start over. This meant taking whatever I could get until I could finagle a decent job and that means I have done my share of work at minimum wage and some of it was damn hard work.

But you are right. As long as illegals are willing to work for substandard wages, there will be a huge demand for illegals. Take the illegals out of the equation, however, and voila, the wages will go up as employers are required to offer a decent wage to lure workers to do the work. And yes, we will all pay a bit more for a head of lettuce or a pound of oranges but not enough more that we will stop buying lettuce and oranges.

And, if there are not enough Americans to take the jobs at higher wages, if you make the employers responsible for transporting, housing, health care, etc. for workers on legal worker permits, it won't depress wages for everybody else and the work still gets done.

As I have said--and have posted substantial verification--attempts in the past to put the burden on the employers has not been effective for various reasons. But change the availability of the work force and the behavior of the employers will change and everybody, including legal workers from Mexico or anywhere else, will benefit.

There is a sole reason that "attempts in the past to put the burden on the employers has not been effective"--politicians who rely upon their financial support. It is telling to note which illegality gets Fox all worked up, and which she is willing to ignore.

Perhaps what exasperates me the most about ill-conceived suggestions about how to fix the "immigration" problem is they all gloss over what it means to be a U.S. American. Individuals who come here simply to improve their particular standard of living either by working or by seeking benefits without regard for the country or our citizens are never going to be "Americans." Also waving flags from a native land, refusing to learn our language and establishing subcultures within the country are further examples of a lack of desire to become Americans". If every immigrant to this country supported their homeland against the U.S., we would never have won any of the wars that were fought by descendants from the land of our adversaries. They also came here seeking a better way of life but the U.S. became their adopted home, not a way station on the path to the better life. I'm not saying they should forget where they came from because obviously they should remember it each and every day but they also should adopt our customs learn our language, blend in with our society.
Our best move would be to somehow convince Mexico to improve the standard of living for it's citizens. Once they are happy at home, they will stay. Let's face it, how many of us want to leave our loved ones behind, and face death just to make it to another country to work 15 hour days to send money home? How many of us are willing to be put in the back of a semi trailer and hauled across the border with nothing more than pie in the sky dreams and trust in a stranger promising us freedom?
Yes Mexican's risk their very lives to come to this country, many in search of a better life. Perhaps not the life that you and I have but one with running water and the occasional trip to the local Wal-Mart.
Has anyone of you ever listened to the stories these people tell of their journey here?
It starts with a dream of a better life, one they will never achieve in Mexico (let's force their President to improve living conditions and they will want to stay in Mexico because they leave family behind in their quest for a better life). They pay smugglers (Coyotes) mostly Americans, who do nothing more than traffic in human slavery to bring them to the US. Normally the Coyote will tell them that there is housing and work waiting and once here they can "get their papers". There's work alright. Backbreaking work from sun up to sundown for little if any pay. Housing? The back of semi trailers have been used to house these people in which they are locked into at night. Who are they going to complain to? They can't complain, they don't dare, because their employers have let them know they are illegals and will be deported or worse if they are discovered. It's not unusual that they are physically abused by their employers and it's not unusual that injuries aren't treated.
People die in the fields while picking melons and strawberries but those deaths aren't important, after all they were illegals. The ones who do get medical treatment, who seek medical treatment, have no insurance, and no way of paying the bill so the county takes care of them while the taxpayers foot the cost.
Their plight is unacceptable, as is the plight of our system which takes care of these people. All these people need is a chance and that is what they've come to America for, a chance at a better life. Perhaps it is us keeping them down, because as some of you have said, they take our jobs. Our jobs? You mean the ones we feel we are too good to accept? The ones on the low end of the pay scale.
There is little doubt it's time to overhaul our immigration laws and tighten our borders but will Congress do this especially when the agriculture giants of Florida, California and Texas press hard against it? After all it is our companies that reap the benefits from cheap labor, and when their profit margin is threatened they won't stand idly by. We as consumers are as guilty. We don't want to pay $5 a quart for OJ or strawberries or $10 a head for lettuce so we ignore the illegals and what they do for us and but Christ Almighty, let one seek medical care and we have a freaking fit.
There are 12 million people who live and work in the U.S. without "permission."
Most live and work in this country for small wages to enjoy what they see as luxuries .....things like electricity, running water, public schools and Wal-Mart. But they're not "Americans."
The government did not give them "permission" to become Americans. So as of right now, there are 12 million people living and working in this country with little hope of ever becoming Americans.
They live in the shadow of Americans. Mostly picking up Americans' garbage, cleaning Americans' hotel rooms, picking the fruit Americans buy in their markets. Many live in the poorest American neighborhoods, often moving from one town to the next for work and wages. Some may lay tile for my American brother in law.
Many have amnesty, but keep a low profile, sometimes under assumed names, hoping that it won't be discovered they're not Americans, but aliens and sent back home. Many simply cross back into America, again without permission. Each year hundreds die in the process.
This is an enormous problem. A problem that needs good solutions.
Solutions that, for a nation of 300 million immigrants, could redefine what it means to be an "American."
Finally, there were a few good solutions proposed by Washington the past month after decades of completely ignoring the issue.
The best came out of a Senate committee that basically allows these 12 million people some path to citizenship. Allows them to come forward, identify themselves and live and work in this country as guest workers. After about a decade of working for Americans and obeying American laws, they are eligible to become Americans. Americans who have earned the protection of the law, the right to vote, to drive, to go to school and of course the right to pay taxes.
Unfortunately, there were also some really bad proposals.
Some proposed charging all illegal immigrants as felons, some proposed sending all of them back to Mexico or whatever other non-American country they came from. Almost all proposals include better border security and more effective patrols.
Others, like U.S. Sen. Bill Frist, see a better fence as the final solution. A giant fence across the entire U.S.-Mexico border to prevent anyone from coming to America without permission.
If people even attempt to get through the fence without permission, they'll be charged as felons, prosecuted and never given any chance of someday getting permission to become Americans.
Some will be shot.
This idea has a lot of people's support.
And frankly, that scares the hell out of me.
It's the most un-American strategy I can think of to solve a real American problem.
A Soviet-style Berlin Wall across the Mexico-U.S. border. An American "38th parallel." This fence will not only keep the Mexicans out, people like Frist argue, but terrorists.
It's never occurred to people like Frist that if millions of immigrants have incentives to stay above ground, participate in an open society and keep records like driver's licenses and guest worker permits, it will be easier to concentrate law enforcement and intelligence on those who don't.
The criminal minority will weed themselves out of the system, and conveniently show themselves by the very fact they have something to hide.
If all 12 million immigrants are suddenly criminals, how do you weed out the harmless "criminals" from the threats? A wall is not the solution.
We are a nation of immigrants.
If Washington puts up an Iron Curtain, it won't just be 12 million Mexican "criminals" who won't be Americans.
We'll all be less American.

You appear to be assuming supply and demand applies in the job market, but not in the products market. If so, that's an interesting economic theory.


I must have missed the post where you outlined those various reasons. What were they again?