50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 05:56 pm
@Foxfyre,
Yes Foxy-- but how big are the checks and how strenuous are the efforts?

Quote:
You have many contacts (out there)
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
Anyway they already expect you
To just give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations




ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:00 pm
Foxfyre, I still don't think you get it.

It was Human Events, a solidly conservative organization, that fired the man you are defending because he was to racist for them to be associated with.

You are defending some very nasty people in your quest to show how not bigoted your position.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:02 pm
@ebrown p,
I'm not defending anybody ebrown. I'm only stating that those of you who so like to condemn people so much have not made a case that the man is racist. He may be the most racist fool on the planet, but you haven't cited a single source that I consider credible enough to make that judgment.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:07 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Yes Foxy-- but how big are the checks and how strenuous are the efforts?

Quote:
You have many contacts (out there)
Among the lumberjacks
To get you facts
When someone attacks your imagination
But nobody has any respect
Anyway they already expect you
To just give a check
To tax-deductible charity organizations



Not as big as I would like. I wish I was younger and stronger so that we could do more. The most violent city in Mexico right now is Juarez and we cooperate closely with a mission church there who is doing yeoman's work to feed and clothe the people who are in desperate situations there. We've managed to get tons of rice and beans and other necessities to them. At least we know those receiving the supplies are honorable men who do distribute to the poor. We cannot say the same for everybody. So far the violence has not trickled much across the border into El Paso and that is good as it allows everybody to keep supply lines open.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:16 pm
@Advocate,
The Anti-Defamation Leauge wrote:

The Anti-Defamation League (ADL), which previously has documented how extremist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazis have exploited the immigration issue to advance their own agenda, has become increasingly concerned about the virulent anti-immigrant and anti-Hispanic rhetoric employed by a handful of groups that have positioned themselves as legitimate, mainstream advocates against illegal immigration in America.

Unlike the Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazis, who make no attempt to hide their racism and bigotry, these anti-immigrant groups often use more subtle language to demonize immigrants and foreigners. They are frequently quoted in the media, have been called to testify before Congress, and often hold meetings withlawmakers and other public figures. However, under the guise of warning people about the impact of
illegal immigration, these anti-immigrant groups often invoke the same dehumanizing, racist stereotypesas hate groups.


http://www.adl.org/civil_rights/anti_immigrant/print_version.pdf
(This article about bigotry in the "anti-immigrant" movement and the links between "mainstream" groups like NumbersUSA and extremist racist groups is interesting in its entirety.)

The Anti-Defamation League then goes on to discredit Roy Beck, the very same gentleman that Advocate quotes from above, as one of the leaders of these "extremist groups".

Advocate still hasn't said what he thinks of the Southern Poverty Law center. But...

The Anti-Defamation league and the Southern Poverty Law center are two prestigious civil rights groups. They have no reason to jump into the immigration debate other than their stated mission of fighting bigotry.

If both of these groups say that the arguments you are making are extreme and bigoted... well, that's saying something.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:30 pm
@ebrown p,
The ADL is dead wrong in this issue, as well as in a number of other issues. It is very liberal, and many libs tend to welcome illegals. They don't want to hear about all the damage done to the country by illegals, such as the jobs they take from citizens. I wonder whether you feel differently if an illegal took your job, and you were left virtually starving.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:32 pm
@ebrown p,
Interesting that you didn't quote what the ADL wrote about Roy Beck. I would think you would want to quote the exact words of condemnation about such a sinister extremist racist.

As for the SPLC, you are entitled to your opinion, but after exploring their website for a very short time, I wouldn't take what they said about anybody at face value and I see them as far more extremist than at least most groups and people you have condemned through them.

Each to their own.

P.S. There is very little that I agree with Advocate about, but he at least knows the difference between immigrants and illegal immigrants. You and some of your favorite sources don't seem to make the distinction.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:44 pm
@Foxfyre,
(Of course, I encourage anyone to read the article for themselves).

The Anti-Defamation League wrote:


A closer look at the public record reveals that some of these supposedly mainstream organizations have disturbing links to, or relationships with, extremists in the anti-immigration movement. Often identified in the media or their mission statements as “anti-illegal immigration advocacy groups,” they attempt to distort the debate over immigration by fomenting fear and spreading unfounded propaganda through the use of several key tactics:

- Describing immigrants as “third world invaders,” who come to America to destroy our heritage, “colonize” the country and attack our “way of life.” This charge is used against Hispanics, Asians and other people of color.

- Using terminology that describes immigrants as part of “hordes” that “swarm” over the border. This dehumanizing language has become common.

- Portraying immigrants as carriers of diseases like leprosy, tuberculosis, Chagas disease (a potentially fatal parasitic disease), dengue fever, polio, malaria.

- Depicting immigrants as criminals, murderers, rapists, terrorists, and a danger to children and families.

- Propagating conspiracy theories about an alleged secret “reconquista” plot by Mexican immigrants to create a “greater Mexico” by seizing seven states in the American Southwest that once belonged to Mexico.

...

John Tanton, often considered the father of the anti-immigrant movement, has connections to the founding and funding of the organizations that comprise the Leadership Team. Tanton has been an anti-immigrant activist and writer for over 20 years and is at the center of a network of anti-immigrant groups located across the country. Tanton has helped to found and fund these groups through U.S. Inc., a non-profit that he created. In 1997, Tanton said that if the borders are not secured, America will be overrun by people “defecating and creating garbage and
looking for jobs.”

The five groups that comprise the Leadership Team include:

...

NumbersUSA: Positions itself as a “non-partisan” scholarly source of information about the damaging effects of high immigration levels. Its leader, Roy Beck, travels the country making visual presentations to highlight the ways in which immigration places strains on several aspects of American society. NumbersUSA also has a significant grassroots presence as the organization that claims to have sent millions of faxes to Congress to support the defeat of the 2007 immigration legislation.

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:46 pm
@ebrown p,
And this is racist how? Extremist how? NumbersUSA is for lowering immigration rates, yes, but is that in itself hostile to immigrants? I am certainly not hostile to immigration in any form or fashion and elsewhere on this thread you've find my testimony of what I have been privileged to do to help new immigrants become citizens. I don't know that I would agree with NumbersUSA assessment of how many immigrants should be admitted each year as I didn't research it that thoroughly, but is there no room for establishing a quota, whatever it is, without being branded extremist or racist?

Responsible citizens, immigrants or not, know that we do nobody any favors if we bring them here in a way in which they cannot be assimilated seamlessly into our culture and society.

On the home page of NumbersUSA is Congresswoman Barbara Jordan's picture and her quote:
“It is both a right and a responsibility of a democratic society to manage immigration so that it serves the national interest.”

So if your source labels NumbersUSA an extremist organization, that discredits your source right there.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:50 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre... please at least get the record straight.

The organization that calls NumbersUSA extremist and bigoted is not "my source". It is a prestigious civil rights organization called The Anti-Defamation League.

They are quite well known and respected (in case you haven't heard of them). They describe their work like this (from the home page of their website www.adl.org).

Quote:
The Anti-Defamation League was founded in 1913 "to stop the defamation of the Jewish people and to secure justice and fair treatment to all." Now the nation's premier civil rights/human relations agency, ADL fights anti-Semitism and all forms of bigotry, defends democratic ideals and protects civil rights for all.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:52 pm
@ebrown p,
I know what the ADL is and what they are about. They do some good work and at times they are the ones who are extremist. From what little I've seen, they aren't right about Numbers USA and they are discredited in their assessment of what constitutes an extremist organization by lumping NumbersUSA in with extremist and/or racist organizations.

Generally I prefer to look to organizations that aren't in the business of defaming and sliming other organizations in order to find information that I can trust.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 06:57 pm
@ebrown p,
Please tell us how NumbersUSA is an extremist organization. It is anything but that.
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 07:01 pm
@Advocate,
Advocate, read the articles I linked to by the Southern Poverty Law Center, and the Anti-Defamation League. Both of these organizations believe that NumbersUSA is a racist and extremist organization. They make the argument far better than I can.

If you don't respect these prestigious civil rights groups... I doubt there is anything I can say to convince you.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 07:02 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

Generally I prefer to look to organizations that aren't in the business of defaming and sliming other organizations in order to find information that I can trust.


That's funny.... do you have one in mind?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 07:08 pm
@ebrown p,
NumbersUSA
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 07:34 pm
@Foxfyre,
You are full of crap Foxfyre!

Roy Beck (the leader of NumbersUSA) not only demonizes "illegal people", he also demonizes the Hispanic community and any group he mischaracterizes as "open borders".

Roy Beck wrote:
The answer is pretty ugly: These Hispanic leaders are more enthusiastic in creating more Democratic voters out of the amnestied illegals and in creating more members for their Hispanic organizations than they are in helping struggling Hispanic-American families.


Roy Beck (as quoted by Advocate above) wrote:

Now, they exercise control over incredible fortunes, and they are using that control to promote their agendas of massive U.S. population growth and a globalized U.S. labor market.

Not all immigrants treat their adopting country like Gregorian and Soros do.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Apr, 2009 07:51 pm
@ebrown p,
Opinion noted ebrown. Rave to your little heart's content. I happen to believe that somebody giving honest criticism and stating honest facts is not necessarily unAmerican or radical or extreme even if it isn't politically correct and/or you don't like what somebody says. Until you have more to offer than the stuff you've posted to smear this guy so far, you won't mind if I remain unpersuaded, yes?
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 10:25 am
@Foxfyre,
Brownie and the other simpletons backing the illegals don't seem to realize that the latter are effectively telling those who seek to come into the USA legally that they are fools.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 10:27 am
This

Quote:
The answer is pretty ugly: These Hispanic leaders are more enthusiastic in creating more Democratic voters out of the amnestied illegals and in creating more members for their Hispanic organizations than they are in helping struggling Hispanic-American families.


This, is what counts for 'honest fact' nowadays?

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Apr, 2009 10:43 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Have you any suggestions Cyclo as to what we might do to reverse the natural order you describe? It is an honest fact.

 

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