What should be done about illegal immigration?

@genoves,

Thanks for trying Genoves. But I know from long experience now, that it is futile. He seems to enjoy being unkind to people or maybe he does that to make himself feel more important. I don't know.

I don't know whether I am more intelligent than anybody here. But I do think I see some things more clearly than some others do. Every now and then I do see that I'm wrong and/or there is more to the issue than what I previously realized. That, plus enjoying conversation with intelligent people is what keeps bringing me back here.

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@genoves,

genoves wrote:

Quote:

Dear Cicerone:

Foxfyre is easily twice as intelligent as you. Your problem is that you are unable to understand sentences which are complex. Work on it and you will see the light.

Please prove this statement with proof/evidence. Otherwise, go screw yourself.

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@Foxfyre,

parados posted the following about Foxie on the thread American Conservatism in 2008:

Quote:

Re: Foxfyre (Post 3543770)
Quote:

Fox wrote: I accept that you are assigning a different intent to my Rush post than what I intended and as I doubt I will change anybody's mind about my intent, I will hope that will drop. I will apologize for confusing people. My intent was not to be dishonest.

parados wrote: No, your intent was to deny something you obviously said. Your intent is to not stick by your own statements when they are used against you but to deny you even said them, then when they are pointed out you deny any intent in the statement. Your intent is to show that you have no convictions worth standing up for but only want to right at any cost even if you have to deny what you believe.

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Foxy, why do you insist on using the word "illegal" (particularly as a noun) incessantly in each of your posts even though you know it annoys me?

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To CI:

And Parados arrived at a wrong inference and a wrong interpretation about what I said and refused to accept that when it was explained to him. But please do not hijack this thread with unrelated criticisms in your obsession with bashing me. Why don't you start your own thread to explain to everybody what a terrible person Foxfyre is and focus your hatefulness there? At least that would make all the other threads much more pleasant.

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@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

Foxy, why do you insist on using the word "illegal" (particularly as a noun) incessantly in each of your posts even though you know it annoys me?

Because, if I do not specify that it is ILLEGAL immigration that I object to rather than immigration, I will be imprecise and give you and Obill and others who want to mischaracterize me more ammunition with which to accuse me. Capice?

Why do you object to the term illegal being applied to those engaged in illegal activities?

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@Foxfyre,

Still, I don' know why you bother. No matter the topic is illegal immigration, your replies seem directed to immigration - period. A completely different subject which not many seem interested in.

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@cicerone imposter,

Touchy! touchy! Your problem, unlike Foxfyre, is that you seldom document anything you write. I can give no credence to anyone who writes post after post full of unproven homilies.

When you make a statement, back it up with evidence like Foxfyre does.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre--Parados attacked your posts. Parados is in the habit of making statements about people and their posts without giving evidence that they are wrong. Like many, he will attack ad hominem but will NOT GIVE DOCUMENTATION OR EVIDENCE.

Ignore his puffery. Stay on message.

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

The same reason you object to the term bigot being applied to those engaged in bigotry. (The difference is that you are still whining about it).

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@roger,

roger wrote:

Still, I don' know why you bother. No matter the topic is illegal immigration, your replies seem directed to immigration - period. A completely different subject which not many seem interested in.

You obviously haven't read all my posts then Roger. I think you can't deal constructively with either without dealing with both. I don't think we can effectively solve our illegal immigration problem without an efficient, effective, and practical immigration policy, and I don't think we will achieve an efficient, effective, and practical immigration policy without addressing the illegal immigration problem.

I have no problem whatsoever with immigrants. I descended from immigrants--some who arrived here in this century--and there are immigrants in my immediate living family now. Nor do I have any problem with any race of people--we have a multi-hued family too.

I do have a huge problem with people who thumb their noses at American laws and then accuse us of racism and bigotry when we object to that. And I have seen first hand some of the problems that unrestricted and uncontrolled illegal immigration is creating.

Those who have read my posts for awhile know that I am also pretty much anti political correctness that is used to judge people as good or bad. So, I prefer to call people 'criminals' rather than the longer "persons who have violated the law of the land' and I call people 'illegals' when they enter the country illegally for whatever purpose.

I do draw a distinction between legal and illegal immigration. It seems some here would like for there to be no distinction at all.

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@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

Quote:
The same reason you object to the term bigot being applied to those engaged in bigotry. (The difference is that you are still whining about it).

I have no objection to the term 'bigot' being applied to bigots. I have objection to persons who are not bigots being labeled that.

I have no objection to the term 'illegal' being applied to those engaged in illegal activity. I do have a problem with 'illegal' being applied to those who are not in violation of the law.

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@Foxfyre,

You are in denial about bigotry...

The defamation of "illegal" immigrants... the inflation of prison statistics. The greatly exaggerated connection with crime. The inaccurate threat of disease.

All of these lies have been made on this very thread.

I suppose there is a difference between the overt Bigotry from Advocate and High Seas; their fantastic and unsupported claims about crime and prison population, to the blatant (and false) assertions that "illegal" immigrants have no rights.

In my opinion you are an apologist. You pretend you are having a real argument about the rule of law... but ignoring the real undercurrent of hatred and racism that is so prevelant from the anti-"illegal"-immigrant side.

If someone made a cogent argument against illegal immigration that did not rely on defamation... I would respect it. This type of anti-illegal immigration argument would be welcomed by me.

I haven't heard this type of argument, not from you or from anyone else.

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@ebrown p,

Exaggeration of statistics of any kind or whether claims or supported or not are different issues from racism and are absolutely valid material for discussion, refutation, confirmation or whatever. Possibly a bigot would engage in intentional falsification of information to accuse somebody or might believe the unbelievable about somebody BECAUSE of his/her race which would put it into the area of racism. But, if that same person believed and utilized erroneous information regardless of the race/ethnicity/nationality of the subjects involved, no racism implied or otherwise would be involved.

I can see that distinction.

Can you?

Is it not bigotry to assume that all who intentionally or unintentionally use incorrect or false information are motivated by bigotry?

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@Foxfyre,

Is it even not more clearly bigotry to assume that all those who do the best they can to use correct information to support their opinion that you disagree with are motivated by bigotry?

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@Foxfyre,

The issue is defamation; painting people as threats who are not threats; spreading lies designed to stir fear and anger; doing everything to deny that they are human beings worthy of rights (or even compassion). The invasion rhetoric (as if serving you a hamburger were an act of violence) is deeply troubling.

Defamation is the primary tool of bigots.

I would welcome a voice on the other side that didn't resort to lies and defamation.

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@genoves,

My need to "document" anything I write is based on "your ability" to challenge them any way you wish.

You, on the other hand, write gibberish without any logic or substance.

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@ebrown p,

That is not the issue for me or with me or about me. For a very long time now, I have refrained from and opposed defaming people on the basis of race/ethnicity/nationality etc. I do believe, however, that we are a nation of laws and we will cease to be that if we do not enforce those laws to the best of our ability. I am not hard nosed about it. In many cases, I don't have a problem with a cop giving a warning to a first time offender and sending him/her on his/her way. But you cannot have lawfulness if the law is consistently ignored. And you cannot enforce the law without accusing the law breaker and specifying his/her crime.

Your and my disagreement is that you seem to see ANY enforcement of the immigration laws to be racist or bigoted. You seem to think that ANY criticism of illegal activities by illegal immigrants is based on bigotry and racism. The fact that some may be is not logically translated into an assumption that all are.

I separate racism and bigotry from the issue of illegal immigration and I focus on the non racist and non bigoted components of the issue.

You and those like you don't seem to be willing to do that.

Until you can, we can probably never have a reasoned discussion targeted at arriving at a solution that is the best solution for everybody.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre- I amsorry to tell you this but youhave been soundly defeated. You have been labeled as a (gasp) RACIST. There is no defense against this. If you are a racist, you are a racist and any argument you make is colored( no pun intended) by your racism.

Brown has played the race card. There is no way to answer him.

However, as the scholar Dinesh D' sousa has written in "The End of Racism"
"My basic conclusion is that whites view racial discrmination today as a rational response to black group traits, while blacks view it as an immoral assessment of individuals who do not conform to group patterns of behavior"

D'Sousa points out that these conclusions are not only made by whites. They are also made by blacks. In DC, African, Caribbean and Middle eastern cabdrivers will only pick up blacks if they are suitably dressed. These cabdrivers look for signals. Are these black cabdrivers racist?

Do we look for signals from immigrant workers--illegals. Are we then racist?

Was Jesse Jackson being racist when he said--

"There is nothing more painful for me than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start to think about robbery, and then swee it's somebody white and feel relieved"

No, Jesse was not being racist. He was responding to signals. There is a difference.

And, you, Foxfyre, are not being racist when you call an "illegal immigrant" an "illegal immigrant". The signals are clear and the truth is told.

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@genoves,

Yeah I know. I stopped responding to or even reading ebrown's and obill's posts for awhile because I knew they would just be more insulting name calling and ridiculous characterizations and I don't need the aggravation.

I am engaging ebrown now because he isn't quite getting it done, but he does seem to be trying to make his point without being directly insulting, so I'm giving him an 'e' for effort.

I don't object to or fault anybody for not sharing or agreeing with my point of view. I can respect somebody who can argue an opposing point of view reasonably and to good effect without resorting to personal insults. It is those people who have the best shot at changing my perspective or even my opinion.

But I just have this thing about people being hateful and/or insulting about it yanno?

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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