What should be done about illegal immigration?

xingu wrote:

Advocate wrote:
The argument here seems to be that, since the USA can accommodate more people, we should. Just because we can accommodate more, doesn't mean that it would be desirable. As I explained ad nauseum, it would have an overall negative effect on the country and its people.

As I have said this has been an argument nativist have used for 150 years or so. I have yet to see the negative effect past immigration has had on this country but I have seen a lot of good from their decendants.

There is no way you, Dobbs or anyone else can predict the future of this country based on immigration. If anyone does then they are either full of BS and engaging in fear mongering or we have to recognize that they have been given a special gift of prophesy by the Lord and let them be our guiding light.

So then you will admit that you dont know the ramifications of admitting more illegal immigrants in, wont you?
It might be as bad as some are saying, couldnt it?

Or, it may be as good as others are saying.
You just said there is no way anyone can predict the future, so why are so many saying that more illegals would be good for the country?

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How many are and where saying that more ILLEGALS are good for your country?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

How many are and where saying that more ILLEGALS are good for your country?

Go back and read this whole thread.
There are several on here saying that giving amnesty to illegals is a good idea.
To me, that is saying that illegals are good for the country.

Now, if you give amnesty now, what will stop millions more from coming in?
After all, if they wait long enough they will get amnesty also.

Besides, dont illegals take the jobs that Americans dont want?

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mysteryman wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
How many are and where saying that more ILLEGALS are good for your country?

Go back and read this whole thread.
There are several on here saying that giving amnesty to illegals is a good idea.
To me, that is saying that illegals are good for the country.

Now, if you give amnesty now, what will stop millions more from coming in?
After all, if they wait long enough they will get amnesty also.

Besides, dont illegals take the jobs that Americans dont want?

It certainly is due to the fact that I'm not a native English speaker.

"More illegals" was translated by me as "more illegals".
Thanks for clarifying my mistake.

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mm wrote :

Quote:

So then you will admit that you dont know the ramifications of admitting more illegal immigrants in, wont you?
It might be as bad as some are saying, couldnt it?

Or, it may be as good as others are saying.
You just said there is no way anyone can predict the future, so why are so many saying that more illegals would be good for the country?

i'd say that XINGU'S comments can be summed up :
"based upon past experience , immigration to the united states has been beneficial to all " . (not speaking for xingu , of course)

ever since immigration started to what are now the united states , it has been of advantage to almost everyone .
that seems to provide a useful way in helping to predict what the future will bring . of course , there can never be an ABSOLUTE or GUARANTEE based upon past experience , but in many (most ?) decisions we are guided by past experiences imo .
hbg

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mm wrote :

Quote:

C?

wouldn't it be more accurate to say :
"Besides, dont illegals DO the jobs that Americans dont want TO DO ?"

isn't that an advantage to EVERYONE ?
immigrants do the jobs that americans don't want to do - usually because they already have a better job , i'd think . so BOTH america and all americans win together with the immigrants who get a chance to prove their worth to their new country .
as an immigrant to canada myself , that's how i see it .
hbg

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hamburger wrote:

mm wrote :

Quote:
C?

wouldn't it be more accurate to say :
"Besides, dont illegals DO the jobs that Americans dont want TO DO ?"

isn't that an advantage to EVERYONE ?
immigrants do the jobs that americans don't want to do - usually because they already have a better job , i'd think . so BOTH america and all americans win together with the immigrants who get a chance to prove their worth to their new country .
as an immigrant to canada myself , that's how i see it .
hbg

So, you are saying that more ILLEGALS is an advantage?

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mysteryman wrote:

So, you are saying that more ILLEGALS is an advantage?

Well, yes I would say that.

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Immigration without a welcome and integration system is idiocy. There are too many examples of immigrants arriving in Canada (at least) with insufficient infrastructure (schools, ESL classes, etc) and then problems resulting. One example:

Children of immigrants used to go to special classes in school where they swiftly learned English because many of them spoke different languages and none spoke English. They had something in common. When their English skills were up to snuff, they were then integrated into the regular classrooms where they did fine. Now, it is politically incorrect to segregate these children, resulting in high stress on the kids in trying to learn the subject matter with inadequate English. What happens? They do poorly, their parents get upset, the kids get more stressed out, they hang out with their own-language-speaking friends, it takes longer for them to learn English and therefore the subject matter, and takes longer to integrate with the other kids. Stupid policy.

There are also examples of where immigrants not only did not benefit the area where they moved (BC, in my case) but were a major deficit. Asian youths who speed race have killed many people on the streets of the Lower Mainland, and their attitude is, "Well, they didn't get out of the way fast enough". East Indian and Asian gangs abound there and they have killed innocent people in shootings. Recently 6 people were stabbed in a gang killing spree, 2 of whom were completely innocent (one was a repairman and the other a 16 yr old).

Immigrants should be welcomed and integrated into the society they're entering and it is not just the responsibility of the country, but of them themselves. I would not move to a foreign country and expect them to accept my ways and they should be willing to adapt as well.

Canada is way to politically correct, mealy-mouthed, passive, and proud to insist on integration.

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We don't agree on much here, mame.

Schools: My degree is education and my certification is for grades 4-7. The Vancouver classroom where I did my practicum had 32 students and five had english as a first language. Language skills were only a minor problem, and soon resolved because of the speed in which children learn new languages. It wasn't the case that english speakers were significantly slowed in their progress. And it was the case that their education of the world and other cultures was enhanced in ways unattainable otherwise. Overall, the cultural mix from immigration created far more gains for all the children than losses.

Crime: You might want to check into the work of Neil Boyd (SFU). I don't think you'll find your concerns re Asian or East Indian immigrant crime supported by statistical analyses. The Sun and Province toss this stuff into the headlines but for reasons we probably both appreciate (drama, simple narrative, and sales). As an analogy, you might consider how the European press cover English visitors during soccer season. Those few troublemakers gain enormous press even though they constitute a miniscule percentage of English visitors overall.

Canadian immigration history/policy: Unlike the US which has always had a "melting pot" goal for immigration (meaning immigrants would come in and be absorbed into the greater group), Canada has always forwarded a "mosaic" policy...that is, there was no discouragement of ethinic immigrants settling in communities with others of the same group. Thus, for example, the concentration of doukobors around Grand Forks. I don't see reason to prefer one or the other of these two settlement systems. In time, of course, we'll see that immigrants will organize themselves in both directions...US cities will have a chinatown or a little italy and Canadian ethnic concentrations will dilute.

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I generally prefer spontaneous adaptive systems that emerge from individual choices to organized authoritarian ones - at least when there is any basis to believe the spontaneous systems will work. On that basis I strongly prefer the American Melting Pot approach to its alternatives (that Bernie so well described).

We have seen the pattern of assimilation repeated with many different groups. It generally repeats a pattern of transient social pathologies, accompanied by steady economic and social advancement into the newly modified composite culture that results. (Organized crime in parts of this country has been variously dominated by the Irish, Jews, and Italians, Chinese, Vietnamese Russians and others. Newer less etniically distinct forms have also emerged from the same sources.) Among the immigrants themselves there is a detectable generational sequence that emerges as well - from laborer, to shopkeeper or cop to college and the professions and the new economy.

No organized systems have yet dealt with such a mass of immigrants over such a long period, so comparisons based on experience are difficult. However the impressions I have from both Europe and Canada are that the transition there also involves similar transient social pathologies and, may tend to produce an emerging class still dependent on government protection, instead of the upwardly mobile entrants to the middle class we see here.

Freedom is better.

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Well, Blatham, I am using recent (last five years) of news reports of shootings and gang slayings as my examples. I know Neil Boyd, in fact, I took Crim courses from him at SFU nearly 30 years ago, and interviewed him for a Channel 10 Prison program at the same time. I have read his opinions when he's interviewed by the Vancouver Sun. However, to bolster my argument, were there not recent immigrant youth uprisings in France (and Quebec?) due to poor integration (ie unemployment, no higher education)? I believe there is a case to be made for having policies which integrate immigrants better. It is our responsibility as the host country, and theirs as newcomers, to work together on this. My daughter was at a nightclub which was rained upon by bullets in a drive-by. This is not something I read in the Sun.

I don't want everyone to be 'white Canadian' - I am very happy having Indo, Sino, Euro, Afro, what-have-you-Canadians. I am maintaining there are faults on both sides of the coin which often result in these behaviours.

With respect to the teaching of immigrant children - my daughter was in a class of 90+% ESL students in grades 3, 4, and 5 and learned almost nothing because many teachers didn't use text books, notes, or chalkboard writing. Teaching in those classes was done by rote. She never had any written homework assignments and couldn't write a paragraph to save her life. I put her into French Immersion (where no one spoke English) in Grade 6 and she immediately began to learn, to my relief. What does that tell you? It tells you that immersion works. So, back to my point that when you have a large population of ESL students, you need to saturate them, immerse them in their new language. If you don't allow other languages in the classroom, they will have to learn English. Because they're all foreign, I think they'd tend to bond better, actually develop some friendships, start to feel like they belong. And you must have read about the stress these kids are under from their parents who think their kids are under-performing.

I know this sounds simplistic, and it probably is - I'm not in education or psychology - but these are just my observations from having lived 49 years in Vancouver. I went to school with many students from around the world but they didn't seem to have a problem integrating... maybe because they had to learn English first? I certainly know there weren't the numbers then that there are now (at any one time).

And my last point concerned these Asian (Hong Kong) rich kids whose parents bought them condos here, bought them cars, enrolled them in schools, and promptly returned to Hong Kong, leaving their brats on their own. Of course they got into trouble. But their non-penitent and reckless attitudes and behaviours outraged many. How many innocent people needed to be killed by fast car street-racing before something was done?

These things were reported in the papers on almost a daily basis. They happened. You can say the papers tossed this stuff into the headlines, but none of the culprits were from Europe or Scandinavia.

I understand that peoples congregate together - Indians in Surrey, Asian in Richmond, etc. Of course they should - I'm sure we'd do the same. And I believe it takes 2 or 3 generations before they feel part of their new country.

In the meantime, we, as a country, are not doing enough to assist integration - and I am talking mosaic here, not melting pot. We have a lot to learn from each other and I wouldn't want anyone to lose their identity or individuality.

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georgeob1 wrote:

No organized systems have yet dealt with such a mass of immigrants over such a long period, so comparisons based on experience are difficult. However the impressions I have from both Europe and Canada are that the transition there also involves similar transient social pathologies and, may tend to produce an emerging class still dependent on government protection, instead of the upwardly mobile entrants to the middle class we see here.

Freedom is better.

I certainly agree with your last sentence. We Canadians pander to all who come here. Did you know you can take your driver's test in any language you want? Yes, yet the road signs are all English. That's going to help a lot, isn't it? It's that kind of stupid decision that hinders the integration process. Our road signs are in English so the test should damn well be in English. Or are we going to move to a multi-lingual road sign system to match the drivers' tests?

And to a large degree the entire population is dependent on government protection, based on what I hear oot and aboot. The majority don't seem to want to solve their own problems; the government should do this, or that... Newfoundlanders can work 8 weeks a year and claim unemployment insurance for the remainder. Why? "Because there is no work in Nfld". That's an enabling policy. If there's no work - move! If you can't get a job, get creative and start something up yourself. Why depend on a handout? A case in point:

A small town in Iceland became economically depressed (the major source of employment moved). They got together and created a cottage industry of some sort and soon became self-sufficient. Canada did a documentary on them and during the interviews, it was funny to see how many people in that town who were simply appalled at the concept of accepting government help. What an eye-opener.

That's what we need more of in Canada.

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mame wrote :

Quote:

That's what we need more of in Canada.

i agree with mame , that we need more of EVERYTHING in canada .

...except crime . while the canadian crime rate is quite low by international standards , it would certainly be better if it were even lower .
as is only too well known , many gun-crimes are committed with guns that are being smuggled in from the united states .
illegal sellers have found out that they can get a much better price for their handguns in canada than in the U.S.
i'd certainly like to see much stiffer sentences for those importing the guns and those using them .

however , when i look at canada overall , things are pretty good for the average citizen compared to life in other countries .
there are countries where one can make more money , or where it is warmer , or where the health-care is better ... ...
but when i sum it all up : IT'S A PRETTY GOOD PLACE TO EARN A LIVING and eventually retire - for us anyway .

also when i look at the many new businesses that have been started by immigrants from all over the world , the scientists and doctors and dentist , and even artists that have made their new home in canada , i'd say that canada has benefitted from the immigrants .

of course , there are some criminal elements amongst immigrants but there are certainly also criminals coming from families that have been here for generations ... ... i just wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater !

but we can certainly do much better when it comes to utilizing the many talents of the immigrants coming to canda - that's for sure !
hbg(been here for 51 years and no regrets - hope to stay around for a while :wink: )

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N.M. Surrounded by States With New, Tougher Immigration Laws

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Quote:

Sunday, November 18, 2007

N.M. Surrounded by States With New, Tougher Immigration Laws

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mame
"we, as a country, are not doing enough to assist integration - and I am talking mosaic here, not melting pot. We have a lot to learn from each other and I wouldn't want anyone to lose their identity or individuality."
This one is the best English.
I live in Köln and let me be allowed to thank you for the above words

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New Mexico is a great place for a nuclear test. JMO.

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I am somewhat familiar with NM. I used to live there, and I loved it. However, if you take Albuquerque, many people are moving out of town to escape the drugs and other problems that have multiplied in the city since I was there. I could not believe a recent visit 3 or 4 years ago to a motel down there required parking my car in a fenced compound and I could not leave before 5 am when the gate was opened. This was not a run down motel, but one of the major chains. This to prevent breakins of cars around the motel. This was the first time I ran into this. Also a drove down one of the major streets where I used to live and frequent, I encountered vagrants at stop lights coming over and rapping on my car window. Concertina wire surrounds some businesses.

But it is still a vibrant state with alot of growth in many areas, and it still possesses many of the qualities I liked about it, but yes, it does have a few problems.

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okie wrote:

I am somewhat familiar with NM. I used to live there, and I loved it. However, if you take Albuquerque, many people are moving out of town to escape the drugs and other problems that have multiplied in the city since I was there. I could not believe a recent visit 3 or 4 years ago to a motel down there required parking my car in a fenced compound and I could not leave before 5 am when the gate was opened. This was not a run down motel, but one of the major chains. This to prevent breakins of cars around the motel. This was the first time I ran into this. Also a drove down one of the major streets where I used to live and frequent, I encountered vagrants at stop lights coming over and rapping on my car window. Concertina wire surrounds some businesses.

But it is still a vibrant state with alot of growth in many areas, and it still possesses many of the qualities I liked about it, but yes, it does have a few problems.

So much for the joys of heightened immigration.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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