What should be done about illegal immigration?

Geezuz, if polls meant anything; why hasn't anything been done about Bush with an approval rating of 29%?

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What you all are conveniently ignoring is that many of the people who opposed the bill, opposed it because it was too anti-immigrant and because people didn't want "temporary" guest workers without a path to citizenship.. Barbarba Boxer voted against cloture for just this reason.

The main issue is a path to citizenship, an issue that two thirds of Americans consistantly support.

The irony is that this is the best bill that the conservatives are going to get-- ever.

The next bill will also contain a path to citizenship, but with less of the compromises put in to try to appease the angry hardliners.

Best yet, the screaming hardliners-- now dancing in the street, are going to be blamed for the continued status quo. And, it is the Republicans tearing eachother part about this issue going into the next election (much more than the Democrats).

It may take a couple of years, and you should enjoy the moment if you like the status quo. But your side has no realistic plan other than screaming hate (since everyone knows that mass deportations aren't going to happen).

You aren't going to like the final outcome.

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ebrown_p wrote:

What you all are conveniently ignoring is that many of the people who opposed the bill, opposed it because it was too anti-immigrant and because people didn't want "temporary" guest workers without a path to citizenship.. Barbarba Boxer voted against cloture for just this reason.

Wrong. The general public doesn't believe it will reduce illegal immigration. And, in the minds of most voters, that's what immigration reform is all about.

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The main issue is a path to citizenship, an issue that two thirds of Americans consistantly support.

Wrong. The main issue is border security as a means to control illegal immigration.

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The irony is that this is the best bill that the conservatives are going to get-- ever.

Wrong. The new and improved bill will omit the loopholes found in the 'triggers', close the border first, bar felons and sex-offenders from 'regularization', allow the feds at least 90 days (as proscribed in last year's bill) instead of 24 hours to complete background checks. Etc. etc.

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The next bill will also contain a path to citizenship, but with less of the compromises put in to try to appease the angry hardliners. Best yet, the screaming hardliners-- now dancing in the street, are going to be blamed for the continued status quo. And, it is the Republicans tearing eachother part about this issue going into the next election (much more than the Democrats).

The liberal trick of making your opposition look like extremists has been employed often in your debate.

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It may take a couple of years, and you should enjoy the moment if you like the status quo. But your side has no realistic plan other than screaming hate (since everyone knows that mass deportations aren't going to happen).

Research and polls show that the general population wants a plan that first secures the border and then enforces the laws already on the books. Americans want their government to fulfill it's most basic responsibility, which is to protect the territorial integrity and people of this country.

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You aren't going to like the final outcome.

The bill in its current form is dead because it was a very, very bad bill. As the poll I cited suggests, it was bad for all Americans, a great majority of which favors immigration in general. The elected officials have now heard from their constituents and can proceed accordingly.

Secure the borders.

Enforce the law.

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Well, no sense in a pissing match now since which of us is correct will only be proven with the passing of time.

I only want to say I am not feeling that bad the immigration compromise failed... since I didn't like it that much anyway. After all, I think we can do better (over time).

You may not like the extremist tag, and you may not think it is fair-- but we will be tagging you with it.

The funny thing is that you guys make it so easy to paint you as extremists; what with all of your unbending demands, your insults of anyone who disagree, and you willingness to destroy the Republican part over this. (Not to mention the ridiculous statements about leprosy and Hispanic invasions you can't seem to stop from making).

The telling thing is that I am not angry. It is your side that will continue to get angrier, more frustrated and more extreme.

I am content to wait for a couple of years... actually watching angry white conservatives foam at the mouth while destroying themselves will be quite interesting. The combination of impotance and animated rage amuses me.

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e-brown, That the current congress is unable to come up with a compromise bill on illiegal immigration, we'll have to wait until the next congress to see if they can work it out. The current congress, both republicans and democrats, are a huge failure for our country. They're supposed to do the business of our country, but fail more often than not. It seems they're on a pissing contest too, and everybody else losses.

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ebrown_p wrote:

Well, no sense in a pissing match now since which of us is correct will only be proven with the passing of time.

I only want to say I am not feeling that bad the immigration compromise failed... since I didn't like it that much anyway. After all, I think we can do better (over time).

You may not like the extremist tag, and you may not think it is fair-- but we will be tagging you with it.

The funny thing is that you guys make it so easy to paint you as extremists; what with all of your unbending demands, your insults of anyone who disagree, and you willingness to destroy the Republican part over this. (Not to mention the ridiculous statements about leprosy and Hispanic invasions you can't seem to stop from making).

The telling thing is that I am not angry. It is your side that will continue to get angrier, more frustrated and more extreme.

I am content to wait for a couple of years... actually watching angry white conservatives foam at the mouth while destroying themselves will be quite interesting. The combination of impotance and animated rage amuses me.

I agree there are extremists on both sides - those that you describe are no better than those you prefer not to mention (the ones that are for open-wide borders, allowing anyone who so chooses to cross, regardless of their intentions, etc.)

It's not either of these factions, however, that killed this bill. It's middle America that spoke up and was listened to by their elected officials. That's the part you can't seem to accept, without spinning it to seem that anyone who is for secure borders and law enforcement is "foaming at the mouth".

The best thing to come from all of this, obviously, is that this will be debated in the upcoming election. People will become more aware of just how bad this current bill is, as it will be examined minutely. And they will voice their opinions. And their representatives will either listen or face the consequences.

So you're entirely right to not "feel bad that the immigration compromise failed". A vast majority of us are, like you, looking forward to a better bill - one that's more comprehensive than incomprehensible.

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Hokie,

How many of your friends, of those who voted for Bush in the last two elections, are now so pissed that they refuse to support (or vote for) the Republican party.

In my view... that is the best part of all this.

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The "best" is spot on! Bush is the "uniter, not the divider."

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The people simply want current immigration law enforced. Without that, why would anyone in their right mind believe that ANOTHER Kennedy, etc. bill would be enforced? No reason that I can see.

When McCain asserted that the opponents do not have a solution, only criticism, he assumed we are all stupid. The solution is to enforce current law and carry out current legislation. That is what the polls show, contrary to any other claims you might try to convince us of, ebrown.

The American people see this as an extreme example of politicians not enforcing their own laws that they themselves swear to uphold, and laws that they themselves have helped to write. They are not in the mood for more laws, and more convoluted and weaker laws on top of older laws that are not being enforced.

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I only want to say I am not feeling that bad the immigration compromise failed... since I didn't like it that much anyway. After all, I think we can do better (over time).

Funny,thats what those opposed to the bill are saying also.

The difference is,we want the current laws enforced AND the border secured BEFORE any more laws are passed.
Those in favor of the bill dont seem to want that to happen.

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I think Ebrown is dead right on this (and Cyclops is rightly gitty). The bill was defeated not just because the "middle" didn't like it; neither extreme liked it either (kind of the nature of a compromise, really). The predictable result is continuing the Status quo, which in reality represents more of a victory for the Left than the Right. The longer we remain without an effective policy; the more Illegal Immigration there will be. The already miniscule chances of Mass deportations will only further diminish as the number of undocumented people increase. While it is true that the majority of Americans favor increased border security; so too do they favor a path to citizenship for those who are already here. The latter becomes increasingly inevitable as the sheer numbers increase.

To the neutral party; the status quo may well be the most logical solution. Simultaneously; the volume of undocumented people insure no step too drastic will be employed to block their ability to survive, consequently allowing them to fill the need for low level employment... while the "illegal status" continues to be something of a deterrent to future migrants.

Meanwhile; the longer we continue with the status quo; the more preposterous the idea of mass deportation becomes. Since it is the extremist faction on the Right who vigorously oppose the continued presence of these undocumented people; neither compromise nor inaction help their cause. The Left wins by default. The Right succeeds only in demonstrating an anti-minority position; while thoroughly demonstrating their impotence insofar as doing anything about it. Consequently, the bigger this issue becomes, the more it favors the Left.

Where the Right effectively politicizes Security into: You see it our way or you are weak on security. The left can effectively politicize Immigration into: You see it our way or you are weak on human rights (it matters not at all if you don't see it as a human rights issue). Economics will continue to insure immigration remains a reality just as surely as fanatics will continue to insure Security issues remain relevant. Interestingly; since the Right steadfastly insists undocumented people can not be citizens; they effectively destroy any opportunity to greatly eliminate the hiding places for terrorists and criminals within the undocumented population.

Hence; not only does the Left gain votes from minorities and human rights advocates; if they're clever they can also cut into the security concerns that are largely the only thing the Right can still hang its hat on. It should be relatively easy for the Left to paint the Right as Bigots, even as they diminish the value of the Right's "Ace in the Hole" (security).

For most of the my adult life; the Right has masterfully kept the issues that demonstrate the Left's inability to choose their battles wisely on the forefront. Immigration provides a powerful opportunity for the Left to return the favor.

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Occom Bill, nobody needs to institute mass deportation. If employers are punished severely, the jobs dry up, at least somewhat, and at least some illegal citizens return to their country of origin to apply for entry legally. When an illegal commits a crime, they can be deported. None of this is complicated. There is no need or relevance to making new laws when there has been insufficient effort to enforce the current ones, and no logical allowance to enforce new ones.

When employers cannot find slaves to work at substandard wages and / or benefits, they will need to compete in the legal world of playing by the rules by paying market price wages, benefits, and working conditions. Immigrants can give this country the honor of entering legally, and we can treat them honorably as full class citizens with all the respect they deserve when they do that.

This is not complicated.

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okie, You just don't understand the simplist ideas; you can't penalize all the companies that hired illegals immigrants after the fact; especially the farmers and restaurants that need all those workers for them to be in business and produce all the goods and services we all use. If you are a farmer, and the only people looking to work for you are illegal immigrants to harvest their fruits and vegetables, they are going to hire them. That they are here illegally is the blame of the federal government for not enforcing laws they established. Laws without enforcement is worthless; try to digest this idea before you spout more ignorance.

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It is obviously complicated beyond your depth if you think starving them out is a solution. It is very complicated.

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Just with any law where the authorities begin to enforce, there will be a time of flux. First of all, there should be policy decisions about enforcement, and announcements in that regard to give everybody fair warning of what the efforts will be. And it should be on multiple fronts.

A. The government should not be giving benefits to illegals. Any state or local jurisdiction should be penalized for any violation of federal immigration law.

B. Illegal hiring practices should be enforced. An I.D. card may be necessary, but I see this as simply verifying a valid Social Security number in all cases would be logical to start.

C. Much better border enforcement, with the fence built as already enacted by Congress.

All of these three facets of the enforcement are covered by current law but are either being ignored or weakly applied.

Imposter, you should like my solutions because it would help all the helplessly unemployed people you claim there are out there to go where the jobs need to be done. They could find work, and the employers would have to pay better wages and benefits to get the people there to do it. We solve two problems at once.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

It is obviously complicated beyond your depth if you think starving them out is a solution. It is very complicated.

As with any problem that is let go way too long, there will be a time of adjustment. Look, I am not against looking at providing a mechanism to verify work record or something like that, that can be used to accompany legal application to this country. They got here somehow, so I don't see it as impossible for them to return and then come here legally if they really want to do it. But as Mit Romney said, it is unfair to treat them much differently than others that wait years to even have a chance of coming here.

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okie, You really don't know what you are talking about; the compromise bill congress was working on would have required longer waiting periods for illegal immigrants than legal ones. That's only the first part; there are other penalties and restrictions for family members that are more stringent than legal immigrants. Try to pull off that dunce hat of yours, do a little reading, then offer your opinion. Try to keep up with the news, for god's sake.

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okie wrote:

return and then come here legally

Not only will the good people not be going anywhere; insisting that this type of absurdity be included is precisely why the bad people will continue to be afforded the opportunity to hide among them. Removing the only vestiges of pseudo-legal opportunities for them to support themselves will force many reasonably good people to turn to crime. Complicated.

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I always try to show compassion for both humans and animals, the latter of which I enjoy killing and eating. But animals don't know right from wrong....

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cicerone imposter wrote:

okie, You really don't know what you are talking about; the compromise bill congress was working on would have required longer waiting periods for illegal immigrants than legal ones. That's only the first part; there are other penalties and restrictions for family members that are more stringent than legal immigrants. Try to pull off that dunce hat of yours, do a little reading, then offer your opinion. Try to keep up with the news, for god's sake.

If the bill would actually be enforced, then I might consider it, imposter, but like most Americans, I think the politicians and the government both need to show us good faith with existing law concerning this issue before writing more useless laws.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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