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What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 09:59 am
Bill
Quote:
My restaurant in Cedarburg failed inside of 2 years, with a 3 star rating and a wonderful Chef (just received another national award). Of the dozens of people I know in the business; I know a handful that aren't already on the brink of destruction. None Pay Slave wages, but few could afford the artificially inflated wages that would result in such a nonsensical policy. You cannot remove such a large percent of any workforce without artificially inflating the wages. Sounds wonderful, until the jobs start disappearing altogether.


I am not talking about artificially inflated wages. Just a living wage. Why should anyone work for a wage they are unable to exist on? We talk about exploitation of illegals. Isn't what is being proposed the legalizing of exploitation.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:03 am
au1929 wrote:
Bill O wrote
Quote:

The plan you are describing would drive the price of Kitchen labor through the ceiling. I'd wager 15 to 25% (more than usual) restaurants would fold within a couple of years... including Mom and Pops and even some chains. It is widely believed that the spike in gas prices whaled on the industry last year, and that was A LOT less expensive. If mom and pop are making $100,000; they are employing $300,000 (lots of payroll tax) and Sales Tax on something close to $1,000,000. Jobs, Taxes, decrease in 30 different purveyors takes as well. This is before you factor in the decreased number of patrons who can afford the higher prices. This is just one industry. I'm too ignorant to comment on most others that will be affected... but I can tell you that the businesses that serve restaurants are already taking a beating too


About all those restaurants out of business. I believe you do exaggerate. They will just raise their prices as they are doing now to meet the raising prices of food stuffs. And as for those that cannot survive without the use of slave labor the deserve to go out of business
Rolling Eyes You have obviously never owned a business. A 10% increase in expenses, or (let alone and) decrease in receipts can mean the difference between earning $50,000 and losing $50,000. 9 in 10 restaurants fail in 2 years normally, but that doesn't give you some clue how precarious the industry might be? I've had businesses that did very well with profit margins under 5%, while labor was over 20%. Fortunately; a very healthy chunk of Congress come from business... and another big chunk from the banking industry... so I have faith they will never deliver a bill as idiotic as some here are suggesting.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:11 am
Bill
I will defer to you. How do you envision a workable guest worker program? I am assuming that you are in favor of one.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:30 am
au1929 wrote:
Bill
Quote:
My restaurant in Cedarburg failed inside of 2 years, with a 3 star rating and a wonderful Chef (just received another national award). Of the dozens of people I know in the business; I know a handful that aren't already on the brink of destruction. None Pay Slave wages, but few could afford the artificially inflated wages that would result in such a nonsensical policy. You cannot remove such a large percent of any workforce without artificially inflating the wages. Sounds wonderful, until the jobs start disappearing altogether.


I am not talking about artificially inflated wages. Just a living wage. Why should anyone work for a wage they are unable to exist on? We talk about exploitation of illegals. Isn't what is being proposed the legalizing of exploitation.
I know of no business (personally) that pays anyone under minimum wage be they legal or no. If you want to raise the minimum wage to a "living wage"; that's subject matter for another thread (I'd oppose that too, for many of the same reasons).

I agree that any "temp work program" will lead to heinous exploition. The added expenses of traveling back and forth would have to be shouldered by someone... which means people would inevitably be stuck in jobs they don't want. I consider it the height of selfishness to want people to come here and do **** jobs only to return to a **** life when they're done.

The only restriction that makes any sense at all to me; would be one pegged to unemployment. The only conceivable way to stop poor people from seeking a better life here; is if the waiting list for legal entry is considerably shorter than that to purchase season tickets to the Green Bay Packers.

Mexicans have it made, being so close, because it wouldn't cost them a ton to get here. Don't kid yourself about the poor from around the world living on a dollar a day saving up for a trip to the U.S.A. Ain't gonna happen, so that's more phobia than legitimate concern.

Now there's been plenty of concern over the Hispanic vote, and rightly so. Seems to me, if we were really thinking intelligently; we'd also be paying attention to the Mexican vote... in Mexico. If, like many of you suggest, the 20,000,000 or so Mexican aliens are poor; consider that 40% of those remaining are under the poverty line as well. That means we must be coming up on having a majority of Mexican Nationals between here and there that would endorse some form of Annexation. We've already got nearly 1/3 of their poor, and they're damn productive citizens here. Imagine the Gold Rush-like economy booster annexation would be!

Now I don't much care if we add their States to a mutual Union or work in some form of a cooperative effort like Puerto Rico... but I do believe that is the most logical evolution. Our land would increase approximately equal to our population. (Look at how tiny the border would be then.) I can only assume the smaller, poorer States below them wouldn't be far behind. Instead of worrying about immigration; I say we start working out the kinks of integration.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:33 am
Quote:
Imagine the Gold Rush-like economy booster annexation would be!


Shocked Shocked

Gotta dial it down a little there, Bill, you're scaring me

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:33 am
au1929 wrote:
Bill
I will defer to you. How do you envision a workable guest worker program? I am assuming that you are in favor of one.
Not at all. I have no desire to look down my nose at the lower class. Give them Green Cards and set up whatever hoops you wish for citizenship; but don't just ring the labor out of them only to discard them like used paper towel.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:34 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Imagine the Gold Rush-like economy booster annexation would be!


Shocked Shocked

Gotta dial it down a little there, Bill, you're scaring me

Cycloptichorn
Think it through. We'd exchange value for value to the mutual benefit of us both. Why is that so outrageous?
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:36 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Imagine the Gold Rush-like economy booster annexation would be!


Shocked Shocked

Gotta dial it down a little there, Bill, you're scaring me

Cycloptichorn
Think it through. We'd exchange value for value to the mutual benefit of us both. Why is that so outrageous?


You assume that competent people would be managing this operation on either end. I'm not sure which group of people you propose to do this, as neither our gov't nor their gov't can be trusted for such a thing, as you well know Laughing

The theory is one thing, actuality quite another. Not to mention that imposing our environmental standards upon their country would decimate their economy.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:38 am
Arguing about the "guest worker program" is a waste of time. According to the latest reports, congress has approved 200,000 guest workers in the "new" legislation. It doesn't matter what the "details" are until congress writes them in and enforces it.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:47 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Imagine the Gold Rush-like economy booster annexation would be!


Shocked Shocked

Gotta dial it down a little there, Bill, you're scaring me

Cycloptichorn
Think it through. We'd exchange value for value to the mutual benefit of us both. Why is that so outrageous?


You assume that competent people would be managing this operation on either end. I'm not sure which group of people you propose to do this, as neither our gov't nor their gov't can be trusted for such a thing, as you well know Laughing
Perhaps the single greatest contributor/philanthropist mankind has ever known could be tapped to put together a team that would be equal to the task (Bill Gates).

Cycloptichorn wrote:
The theory is one thing, actuality quite another. Not to mention that imposing our environmental standards upon their country would decimate their economy.

Cycloptichorn
This is one of scores of areas that would require some smarts; but I'm sure acceptable grandfather periods for various things could be implemented to limit the growing pains to the rate that their economy races to catch up with ours. And make no mistake; if you turn American Industry loose on a demographic of 100,000,000 people; IT WOULD BE a Gold Rush like boost in both economies.

I can't tell you how much I'd love to hear Thomas's take on this. Perhaps I should start a new thread...
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:50 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Arguing about the "guest worker program" is a waste of time. According to the latest reports, congress has approved 200,000 guest workers in the "new" legislation. It doesn't matter what the "details" are until congress writes them in and enforces it.
Not true. It matters little what Congress is chattering about until it's passed, both houses, and is signed by the POTUS. This is exactly the right time for citizens to openly debate the issue, as overtly as possible.
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:52 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
The plan you are describing would drive the price of Kitchen labor through the ceiling. I'd wager 15 to 25% (more than usual) restaurants would fold within a couple of years... including Mom and Pops and even some chains. It is widely believed that the spike in gas prices whaled on the industry last year, and that was A LOT less expensive. If mom and pop are making $100,000; they are employing $300,000 (lots of payroll tax) and Sales Tax on something close to $1,000,000. Jobs, Taxes, decrease in 30 different purveyors takes as well. This is before you factor in the decreased number of patrons who can afford the higher prices. This is just one industry. I'm too ignorant to comment on most others that will be affected... but I can tell you that the businesses that serve restaurants are already taking a beating too.


It's also, in effect, the plan that Ted Kennedy is describing. He holds an opposite viewpoint from your own, rejecting such criticism. Of course nowhere in the bill are expenses, costs to taxpayers or higher prices discussed or even mentioned.

Personally, I'd like them to lay it on the line and spell it out - all of it. Just how much is all of this going to cost and how we'll pay for it. It's a given that our taxes are going to be much, much higher, but I think if we know just how much of the burden we'll be asked to assume, it will take some of the sting away.

In the end, it has to be borne (either higher prices or closed businesses and much higher taxes) and it's all in the name of compromise. Maybe we should look at it as being a small price to pay if the give-and-take results in any semblance of reasonableness.

The powers that be seem to want to keep certain details out of the public debate and the evidence of this is how fast they wanted to ram this new "comprehensive" bill through.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:54 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
Arguing about the "guest worker program" is a waste of time. According to the latest reports, congress has approved 200,000 guest workers in the "new" legislation. It doesn't matter what the "details" are until congress writes them in and enforces it.
Further; that sounds like a good recipe to reduce the number of illegals pooring in by considerably less than half. :wink:
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 10:57 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
And make no mistake; if you turn American Industry loose on a demographic of 100,000,000 people; IT WOULD BE a Gold Rush like boost in both economies.


Given free trade, Canada'll get pulled into this, and I'll have to find you and destroy you.

Bad, bad idea.

Get rid of NAFTA first.
0 Replies
 
HokieBird
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 11:00 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
au1929 wrote:
Bill
I will defer to you. How do you envision a workable guest worker program? I am assuming that you are in favor of one.
Not at all. I have no desire to look down my nose at the lower class. Give them Green Cards and set up whatever hoops you wish for citizenship; but don't just ring the labor out of them only to discard them like used paper towel.


The bill in its current form includes a provision for guest workers to earn points towards a green card.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 11:06 am
HokieBird wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
The plan you are describing would drive the price of Kitchen labor through the ceiling. I'd wager 15 to 25% (more than usual) restaurants would fold within a couple of years... including Mom and Pops and even some chains. It is widely believed that the spike in gas prices whaled on the industry last year, and that was A LOT less expensive. If mom and pop are making $100,000; they are employing $300,000 (lots of payroll tax) and Sales Tax on something close to $1,000,000. Jobs, Taxes, decrease in 30 different purveyors takes as well. This is before you factor in the decreased number of patrons who can afford the higher prices. This is just one industry. I'm too ignorant to comment on most others that will be affected... but I can tell you that the businesses that serve restaurants are already taking a beating too.


It's also, in effect, the plan that Ted Kennedy is describing. He holds an opposite viewpoint from your own, rejecting such criticism. Of course nowhere in the bill are expenses, costs to taxpayers or higher prices discussed or even mentioned.

Personally, I'd like them to lay it on the line and spell it out - all of it. Just how much is all of this going to cost and how we'll pay for it. It's a given that our taxes are going to be much, much higher, but I think if we know just how much of the burden we'll be asked to assume, it will take some of the sting away.

In the end, it has to be borne (either higher prices or closed businesses and much higher taxes) and it's all in the name of compromise. Maybe we should look at it as being a small price to pay if the give-and-take results in any semblance of reasonableness.

The powers that be seem to want to keep certain details out of the public debate and the evidence of this is how fast they wanted to ram this new "comprehensive" bill through.
I get the impression that you got the impression I'm a Kennedy-style liberal. NOT. I voted for Bush in the last election and Independent in the 3 before that. Kennedy shouldn't, yet, be eligible for parole, let alone a Senator.

I disagree that reform has to cost us Tax money. The path to citizenship can include plenty of hoops, and I don't believe for one moment the additional taxpayers will eventually balance out to be a net liability. Do people not realize that payroll taxes are only a fraction of the taxes they pay? Do people not realize that every dollar changes hands dozens of times and that more is almost invariably better? I think you're right that people need better information... but I think a good deal of them would also need a better education to truly understand it.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 11:09 am
ehBeth wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
And make no mistake; if you turn American Industry loose on a demographic of 100,000,000 people; IT WOULD BE a Gold Rush like boost in both economies.


Given free trade, Canada'll get pulled into this, and I'll have to find you and destroy you.

Bad, bad idea.

Get rid of NAFTA first.
Laughing Canada is close enough to on par with us an open border policy like that of the EU would suffice... you can even keep your silly Queen. :wink:

And bite your tongue about NAFTA. NAFTA has done more to pull Mexicans out of poverty than anything in history (save illegal immigration, of course) and you are the kind of person that appreciates stuff like that.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 11:11 am
I think the path should include military service for all able. If you have kids, then they get drafted when they turn 18. Even if they were born here to illegal parents.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 11:12 am
HokieBird wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
au1929 wrote:
Bill
I will defer to you. How do you envision a workable guest worker program? I am assuming that you are in favor of one.
Not at all. I have no desire to look down my nose at the lower class. Give them Green Cards and set up whatever hoops you wish for citizenship; but don't just ring the labor out of them only to discard them like used paper towel.


The bill in its current form includes a provision for guest workers to earn points towards a green card.
That's the part I like... but that's no law yet.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 May, 2007 11:13 am
cjhsa wrote:
I think the path should include military service for all able. If you have kids, then they get drafted when they turn 18. Even if they were born here to illegal parents.
Why not have all sins of the father visited upon the son? Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
 

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