OCCOM BILL wrote: Damn it DTOM, that's just it; I haven't. Nor have I directly accused you, MM or Okie of bigotry. I have offered numerous opportunities to be counted with the bigots, conditionally... but thus far MG and CJHSA are the only two people I recall coming right out and calling bigots. Those who wish to continuously quote absurd crime stats, after they've been demonstrated false, are guilty of bigotry, ignorance or both... so I offer the choice. What's unfair about that?
Wow, Bill, what is it with this subject that sets you off? Just a note, anyone that believes there are only 12 million illegals in this country is off their rocker.
We need all workers from those PhDs to the laborer on our farms and restaurants. That will keep America's economy humming; otherwise, our population will see more retirees than workers; the same problem faced by Germany and Japan.
okie wrote:Wow, Bill, what is it with this subject that sets you off? Just a note, anyone that believes there are only 12 million illegals in this country is off their rocker.
Actually, I think that an illegal is illegal, which means - more or less - unrecorded.
Or is that different in the USA?
We don't have (exact) numbers due to this here, only guesses, which stretch from
xxx to
???. (Though I do believe our guesses to be more exact since we have quite a good regulatory bureaucracy.
okie wrote: OCCOM BILL wrote: Damn it DTOM, that's just it; I haven't. Nor have I directly accused you, MM or Okie of bigotry. I have offered numerous opportunities to be counted with the bigots, conditionally... but thus far MG and CJHSA are the only two people I recall coming right out and calling bigots. Those who wish to continuously quote absurd crime stats, after they've been demonstrated false, are guilty of bigotry, ignorance or both... so I offer the choice. What's unfair about that?
Wow, Bill, what is it with this subject that sets you off?
Otherwise reasonable people buying and forwarding bigoted arguments.
okie wrote:Just a note, anyone that believes there are only 12 million illegals in this country is off their rocker.
The estimates are 12 to 20 million. Do you think that's off?
I think it is at least 20 million, based on personal observation, which is just an opinion based on my experiences. I have traveled extensively in Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, Arizona, and New Mexico, as well as other states of course, which includes California, where I know people. Illegal immigrants have virtually become the majority in countless towns and communities, or have gone from miniscule to a very sizeable portion of the population. Hey, I do not know, but all I know is what I observe. I beleive the estimates are understated, and lots of people have the same feeling. I realize feeling is not a good measure, but when I also read of sizeable influx in the Carolinas, Georgia, and in places like Iowa, Michigan, and even the Northeast. Really it is throughout the country.
Bill, to get real serious about this, most folks love hard working people, but when it is done at the expense of the law, people are going to resent it. For people like yourself to call other bigots, idiots, and so forth is not going to further your cause, or their cause in a positive manner. We need to get a handle on this issue, and fast, and the politicians are failing us. Otherwise, the resentments and problems will only grow.
Finally, before you call people bigots, maybe you need to know them personally. Maybe you haven't called me one, but close to it. If you ever try it, I would suggest you come talk to my hispanic friends, many of which agree with the people you are calling bigots here on this forum.
okie wrote:I think it is at least 20 million, based on personal observation, which is just an opinion based on my experiences.
Where did you get this experience, counting people, and then extrapolate that number over the whole USA to 20 million?
OCCOM BILL
Dare I ask what has Friedman's column about foreigners graduating with PHD's to do with the 12 to 20 million unskilled and uneducated illegal aliens in this nation.
Regarding the lack of our young achieving. Did it ever occur to you that the middle class parent cannot afford the cost of higher education. Further students attending college are saddled with tremendous debt by the time they graduate and will enter the work force rather than incur the extra cost of post graduate school. If the government were interested in having our youth achieve they would find a way to financially help or at least minimize the burden
Very funny, Walter. I said I have no idea how many, but observation raised doubts about the official estimates, as we know there are insufficient ways to count people that may avoid being counted. Most people I know also feel the estimates are probably on the low side, and 12 million is obviously too low. I've heard that number for how many years now, and how many have come here since the number was first started to be used?
okie wrote:Very funny, Walter. I said I have no idea how many, but observation raised doubts about the official estimates, as we know there are insufficient ways to count people that may avoid being counted. Most people I know also feel the estimates are probably on the low side, and 12 million is obviously too low. I've heard that number for how many years now, and how many have come here since the number was first started to be used?
Well, here's the sentence I quoted above again, in the full context:
okie wrote:I think it is at least 20 million, based on personal observation, which is just an opinion based on my experiences. I have traveled extensively in Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, Arizona, and New Mexico, as well as other states of course, which includes California, where I know people. Illegal immigrants have virtually become the majority in countless towns and communities, or have gone from miniscule to a very sizeable portion of the population. Hey, I do not know, but all I know is what I observe. I beleive the estimates are understated, and lots of people have the same feeling. I realize feeling is not a good measure, but when I also read of sizeable influx in the Carolinas, Georgia, and in places like Iowa, Michigan, and even the Northeast. Really it is throughout the country.
You clearly wrote: "I think it is at least 20 million, based on personal experiences, which is just an opinion based on my experiences."
So, again my question: from where or what did you get an experience to calcute "at least 20 million persons"?
okie just loves to offer his opinions, even though the basic thesis usually has no merit. "It's my personal observation that..." is the key to nonsense on topics that usually has better info on the net by a simple Search.
Quote:
You clearly wrote: "I think it is at least 20 million, based on personal experiences, which is just an opinion based on my experiences."
Walter's right, Okie; comments like this are useless in discussions involving facts. Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence!!!
Cycloptichorn
He didn't write "personal observations" but experiences, c.i. .
Walter
It is pretty well accepted that 12 million is a low ball figure. Obvious no one knows the true number, a number that increases almost on a daily basis. The actual figure it is believed to be between 12 and 20 million. However, even that is a guess for all anyone knows it could be in excess of the 20 million figure.
California estimates that there are only 3 million illegals in the state.... but they overlook the fact there are really 12 people living in that 700sf 2BR house.... The bullshit meter is pegged.
I agree, au. I was just and only asking why someone gets a number of above 20 million for all USA due to his "personal experiences".
(Okie) Why, some of my best friends are Hispanic...
I seriously doubt your Hispanic friends would approve of McWhitey calling them beaners or Cjhsa and Foxy quoting numbers that make it sound like half are criminals and the other half are on welfare. I don't think they'd like it one bit.
Where did I say half are criminals? They are ALL criminals and ALL on welfare. Every last one of them, as are their employers.
au1929 wrote:OCCOM BILL
Dare I ask what has Friedman's column about foreigners graduating with PHD's to do with the 12 to 20 million unskilled and uneducated illegal aliens in this nation.
Regarding the lack of our young achieving. Did it ever occur to you that the middle class parent cannot afford the cost of higher education. Further students attending college are saddled with tremendous debt by the time they graduate and will enter the work force rather than incur the extra cost of post graduate school. If the government were interested in having our youth achieve they would find a way to financially help or at least minimize the burden
I solved the Illegal part of the problem, pages ago. It's now an immigration problem... because only one of you bit on the simplest, most effective way to end the "illegal" part of the problem. :wink: Further, a country that doesn't pursue PHD's in science is behaving extremely stupidly. It's a related problem.
Anyone still wondering why I use words like bigot and idiot?
OCCOM BILL wrote:Anyone still wondering why I use words like bigot and idiot?
Considering how bigoted your continued use of these terms make you look and how much they weaken your argument, I sure wonder why you continue to do it.
