What should be done about illegal immigration?

Foxfyre wrote:

I don't see them as 'these people'. I see them as people with all the possibilities and potential of any people.

that is one of the biggest problems i see in this whole mess. it's pretty condescending to relegate an entire race of people (and a i say this because rightly or wrongly, the entire debate is centered around hispanics) to the status of helpless man-child/woman-child.

it's a view employed by both big business and the illegal immigrant's biggest booster, the catholic church. both are using these people to their own ends.

in both cases it's insulting.

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Quote:

You confused the hell out of me. You talk about workers being exploited. However, you coviently neglect to include that what makes it possible is their status as illegal aliens. In addition they because of this exploitation in effect lower the wage levels and rob jobs from US citizens.

I am sorry for confusing you.

You seem to understand the problem pretty well.

Making sure any worker in the US has the rights to change jobs if they are unhappy with their pay and demand decent working conditions is the solution.

If you make these workers easier to exploit by taking away their rights then unscrupulous employers will be able to lower wage levels even further and deny jobs to anyone who insists on their rights.

If you take away the fear these workers have to change jobs or to complain about condition, then they will be able to raise their salary and unwilling to be exploited.

This is clearly better for all workers, and this is why the labor movement is insisting on a path to citizenship. Incidently, the temporary worker program with no chance of citizenship should be strongly opposed by anyone who says they are pro-labor.

My point is simple: "Anyone working in the US should have basic rights to insist on decent conditions and change jobs to increase their salary".

Au, you and I disagree about whether everyone should deported.

But you should at least be able to agree with the basic idea that an underclass of workers with no rights hurts all workers.

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Brown
We are back to the same old stand. They have no rights since they have no right to be here in the first place. Think of it this way. If you do not allow a burglar to rob your house are you taking away his rights?

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ebrown_p wrote:

"Anyone working in the US should have basic rights to insist on decent conditions and change jobs to increase their salary".

yes. and that's one of the reasons that i want the first thing, before there is any reform, amnesty or whatever, to be that employers are looked at; and if found in violation, whatever punishment is given out has to be real world and noticeable. because if that doesn't happen first, all of this is just going to happen again in a few years.

that was a central component to the reagan amnesty, but it never materialized.

we can build fences all day, but if the employers are allowed to do whatever they want, aided by the corporate influence in washington, it's just a joke.
as the illegals here gain "rights" such as higher pay, the same unscrupulous employers will be happy to take on the next illegal willing to work for less. and fire the the one that now makes more.

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
"Anyone working in the US should have basic rights to insist on decent conditions and change jobs to increase their salary".

yes. and that's one of the reasons that i want the first thing, before there is any reform, amnesty or whatever, to be that employers are looked at; and if found in violation, whatever punishment is given out has to be real world and noticeable. because if that doesn't happen first, all of this is just going to happen again in a few years.

that was a central component to the reagan amnesty, but it never materialized.

we can build fences all day, but if the employers are allowed to do whatever they want, aided by the corporate influence in washington, it's just a joke.
as the illegals here gain "rights" such as higher pay, the same unscrupulous employers will be happy to take on the next illegal willing to work for less. and fire the the one that now makes more.

I agree that employees who knowlingly and intentionally hire illegals should suffer severe consequences. If we make legality essential for both jobs AND social services other than basic humanitarian emergency aid, there is no longer any bait on the hook.

The problem is in proposed legislation that would make the employer responsible for enforcing the law. With a booming business in forged documents out there along with identity theft and the other uglies associated with that, the average small business owner has neither the resources nor the expertise to spot a forged driver's license or birth certificate or social security card. In my not so distant previous profession, it was not unusual to find an illegal using four to six social security numbers, all of which were valid numbers, but none of which were his or her own.

We therefore need not only better border security to keep illegals from getting in at all, but we need better positive ID systems to make it easier to catch those who manage to slip through the security.

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ummm... the methodology is pretty lame right now, true. but, many employers take it that it's their job to do drug testing and credit checks. they say it's because of security. so, they will have to do their part.

say hello to biometrics. Shocked

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I wonder why such works elswhere and not in the USA.
(No, I don't since we have a "residents registration office" in any municipality.)

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DontTreadOnMe wrote:

ummm... the methodology is pretty lame right now, true. but, many employers take it that it's their job to do drug testing and credit checks. they say it's because of security. so, they will have to do their part.

say hello to biometrics.

Yes, the employers can do a lot and should to verify the legal status of all their employees. But some of the proposed legislation would impose horrific fines on any employer found to have an illegal on staff. If the employer has copies of what appears to be a valid driver's license, birth certificate, etc. on file, that should absolve him/her of legal consequences UNLESS it could be proved that the employer KNEW the documents were likely forged.

During Jimmy Carter's enforcement procedures for employers, we were required to ask for and have documentation on file of three forms of identification, one of which needed to be a photo ID. That last one became problematic when we wanted to hire teen agers who didn't yet have a driver's license but those were relatively rare. (Yes there are 16-year-olds who haven't yet gone through that process).

Of course a thriving cottage industry to produce 'authentic documentation' for folks sprang up immediately. None of us would have known how to determine if a driver's license or birth certificate was forged.

It goes against the grain of freedom loving Americans, but maybe it is time for a tamper proof national ID card if such a thing exists.

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The Republican debate on immigration in Utah...

Quote:

Convention ends with Satan and immigrants

CALEB WARNOCK - Daily Herald
Utah County Republicans ended their convention on Saturday by debating Satan's influence on illegal immigrants.

The group was unable to take official action because not enough members stuck around long enough to vote, despite the pleadings of party officials. The convention was held at Canyon View Junior High School.

Don Larsen, chairman of legislative District 65 for the Utah County Republican Party, had submitted a resolution warning that Satan's minions want to eliminate national borders and do away with sovereignty.

In a speech at the convention, Larsen told those gathered that illegal immigrants "hate American people" and "are determined to destroy this country, and there is nothing they won't do."

Illegal aliens are in control of the media, and working in tandem with Democrats, are trying to "destroy Christian America" and replace it with "a godless new world order -- and that is not extremism, that is fact," Larsen said.

At the end of his speech, Larsen began to cry, saying illegal immigrants were trying to bring about the destruction of the U.S. "by self invasion."

Republican officials then allowed speakers to defend and refute the resolution. One speaker, who was identified as "Joe," said illegal immigrants were Marxist and under the influence of the devil. Another, who declined to give her name to the Daily Herald, said illegal immigrants should not be allowed because "they are not going to become Republicans and stop flying the flag upside down. ... If they want to be Americans, they should learn to speak English and fly their flag like we do."

Senator Howard Stephenson, R-Draper, spoke against the resolution, saying Larsen, whom he called a "true patriot and a close friend," was embarrassing the Republican Party.

"I agree with 95 percent of this resolution but it has some language that is divisive and not inspiring other people to its vision," he said. "This only gives fodder to the liberal media to give negative attention to the Republican Party."

Joel Wright, a member of the Cedar Hills City Council, was booed as he opposed the resolution.

http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/220065/4

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I think those people should stick to growing corn :wink:

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At least this publication acknowledged that the resident nut was embarrassing the Republican Party. The other party doesn't seem to be embarrassed by anything.

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Foxfyre wrote:

At least this publication acknowledged that the resident nut was embarrassing the Republican Party. The other party doesn't seem to be embarrassed by anything.

I note you use the singular "nut". Reread the piece or get honest.

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" and who is that climbing over the border fence ? hmmm? could it beee.. SATAN ?!?! "

http://www.danacarvey.net/images/churchlady02.jpg

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Ah, what fun. I get to march today at 3. Any of you bigots care to join me? Razz

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Don't want to lose the cheap labor, Bill :wink:

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Right! Bill may have to pay a decent wage to citizens, and maybe even provide a few benefits.

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blatham wrote:

The Republican debate on immigration in Utah...

Quote:
Convention ends with Satan and immigrants

CALEB WARNOCK - Daily Herald
Utah County Republicans ended their convention on Saturday by debating Satan's influence on illegal immigrants.

[............]

"This only gives fodder to the liberal media to give negative attention to the Republican Party."

Joel Wright, a member of the Cedar Hills City Council, was booed as he opposed the resolution.
http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/220065/4

This is great, Blatham, thank you; brings to mind the 2004 slogan for those who wanted to vote Democratic, but didn't like Kerry: " Vote for the Lesser Evil"!

Pursuant to the appearance of that slogan, Massachusetts Republicans started wearing H.P. Lovecraft T-shirts with pictures of Chthulhu (however spelled) and the words: "Chthulhu for President! Why settle for the lesser evil?"

I still have mine Smile

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...and now we also have a report on Hell - from high authority indeed:

Quote:

HELL is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, Pope Benedict XVI has said.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21460090-2,00.html

I knew it - the Pope is really Republican.

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P.S. my flight is just called, got to leave, but thought you'd all like to have a nice pic of Cthulhu >
http://www.cthulhulives.org/greenpolicy.html
> and his agenda Smile

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High Seas wrote:

...and now we also have a report on Hell - from high authority indeed:

Quote:
HELL is a place where sinners really do burn in an everlasting fire, and not just a religious symbol designed to galvanise the faithful, Pope Benedict XVI has said.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21460090-2,00.html

I knew it - the Pope is really Republican.

Actually, he's a German. Republicans are much more forgiving.

In the (loosely remembered) words of Edward Fitzgerald about the nature of God...

Some folks of a surly tapster tell
And daub His visiage with the smoke of Hell
They speak of some strict testing of us..
Pish! He's a good fellow. 't'will all be well.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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