High Seas wrote:Quote:The federal Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 prohibits public colleges from favoring undocumented students by offering them in-state tuition rates and not extending that offer to U.S. citizens.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,186876,00.html
Doesn't surprise me that e-brown-p is advocating for yet more breaches of law - and federal law supersedes Massachusetts law, btw.
Once again, e-brown-p, read carefully the text of the 1996 FEDERAL law.
U.S. CITIZENS means WHETHER IN-STATE OR OUT-OF-STATE. Tiresome.......
Probably that will be about right.
Ironically, in spite of the movement to grant in-state tuition rates to "illegal" immigrants, immigration is not even the most contentious issue in Massachusetts.
The Conservatives are more heated about gay marriage, immigration takes a back seat.
Let's see what happens in court. As the article you posted states, there are nine states that currently give in state rates to immigrants regardless of their status.
This seems to imply that there has yet to be a sucessful court challenge to such laws.
BTW do you believe in state's rights?
ebrown_p wrote:Let's see what happens in court. As the article you posted states, there are nine states that currently give in state rates to immigrants regardless of their status.
This seems to imply that there has yet to be a sucessful court challenge.
Truly remedial English is in order; the article states nine states currently give in-state rates to ILLEGALS. Legal immigrants are of course treated same as US citizens.
ebrown said...
Quote:If you met this kid, you would have no idea that he is someone deserving of your hatred since in every way... except for his papers... he is indistinguishable from any other American kid.
First of all,what makes you think I "hate" anyone?
I dont and never have.
But,I dont think that ILLEGAL aliens in the US should get the same rewards as LEGAL aliens or citizens.
If they have broken the law by being here ILLEGALLY,then there must be consequences for that ILLEGAL action.
You seem to think there should be no consequences for an ILLEGAL act.
Sorry, but I am not going to offer you a remedial English course.
(Although I am curious about whether you intended the adverb "truly" to refer to remedial or to English.)
ebrown_p wrote:Sorry, but I am not going to offer you a remedial English course.
(Although I am curious about whether you intended the adverb "truly" to refer to remedial or to English.)
So I missed the comma after "truly"? A hanging offense in internet typing <G>
YOU however, e-brown-p, have managed to miss the meaning of the terms "US citizen", "illegal", and "immigrant" in ALL your postings since I've been here this time..... Remedial English cannot possibly be taught by you, or any other victim of bilingual education.
The phrase "immigrants regardless of their status" refers to both legal and illegal immigrants.
It is the same way that saying "Americans regardless of their race" includes both Asians and whites, or "bigots regardless of their political party" would encompass both Democrats and Republicans.
So apparently you need me to spell it out for you. I want "illegal" immigrants who live in Massachusetts and legal immigrants who live in Massachusetts to recieve in state rates.
I want legal immigrants to have the opportunity to get a good, affordable education.
I want "illegal" immigrants to have the opportunity to get a good, affordable education.
I want US citizens to have the opportunity to get a good, affordable education.
Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
In today's Chicago Tribune (page A15):
Illegal immigrants' American-born kids have right to stay -- but doing so can often mean great hardship
Full report online: Deportations strand young U.S. citizens
Just to prove that I'm "more wonderful" than ebrown, I want ALL children everywhere to have the opportunity for a good, affordable education. I want the children of Iraq, of all of Africa, of Bangladesh, of all of Asia, all the children of Europe, of Australia, of South America, of Central America, Mexico, and all of North America to have the opportunity for a good, affordable education.
I don't think it can be the responsibility of the United States to provide it for all of them. We aren't doing that great a job with those who are here legally.
I do think the United States must be able to defend its borders, enforce its laws, and know who is here which has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with educating children and only indirectly has anything to do with the lifestyles or problems of any family anywhere.
_________________
--Foxfyre
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
e-Brown puts his money where his mouth is by contributing to the education of a young illegal. Shouldn't he instead help those citizens who have lost jobs because of the illegals.
I live in South Carolina, which has many citizens, including many blacks, who, despite being hard workers, make relatively small salaries. These people are getting killed by the illegals who are pouring into the state and taking many low-paying jobs. Some of these displaced people are turning to crime and welfare-type programs for a subsidy income.
I often wonder why more consideration isn't given to these displaced- worker citizens.
I have no problem with ebrown helping to educate anybody. That is a worthy thing. I am personally providing some financial support for children not related to me and also contribute to organizations that do that. I strongly encourage everybody who is financially able to do so to do that. If everybody would do just a little, we could make a huge difference.
So long as anybody uses his/her own resources to help others, my hat is off to him or or her. My problem is with the do-gooders who presume to use my money or put me at risk so they can feel righteous.
Advocate,
If you care about workers, then you will support policies that help workers.
I don't know all of your politics (my image of you is a typical Lou Dobbs type).... but it is possible we agree on the other issues concerning workers (other than the need to kick out immigrants). Let me assume this is the case and you can correct me if I pegged you wrong.
The worse thing for American workers (or any worker) is to have to compete with people who have no rights. If an illegal immigrant (or a legal immigrant or anyoe else) doesn't has no rights, then they will work for whatever pay and in whatever conditions that an employer sets.
If this worker has the right to complain about conditions and the right to change jobs then they demand a higher salary-- and they will.
Whether or not we can agree on whether or not we can or should deport the millions of people in question-- if you care about American workers we should be able to agree on this; any worker in the US should have full rights to complain about condition, ask for a higher salary or change jobs (yes this is an perhaps futile attempt to aviod mysterman's nitpicking).
I support the right of workers to form Unions to ask for better conditions for all (and before you fire off a knee-jerk response to this, think about why they are called "unions".)
I support the minimum wage. I support policies to ensure workers have safe conditions and time off. I support provisions that prohibit credit fraud and provide reasonable housing.
I am anticipating that you are going to make the argument that less people means better conditions-- and I will argue against this in a further post when you do.
But the point I am making here is that anyone working in the US (in any capacity or any status) should have a full set of workers rights. This to me means all of the protections I list above and a path to citizenship.
US Citizens don't work in sweatshops.
Foxfyre wrote:I have no problem with ebrown helping to educate anybody. That is a worthy thing. I am personally providing some financial support for children not related to me and also contribute to organizations that do that. I strongly encourage everybody who is financially able to do so to do that. If everybody would do just a little, we could make a huge difference.
So long as anybody uses his/her own resources to help others, my hat is off to him or or her. My problem is with the do-gooders who presume to use my money or put me at risk so they can feel righteous.
I feel the same way about you making me support your righteous little war (and putting my kids at risk), or your do-gooding little abstinance programs.
In a democracy, we all have to support things we would rather not.
Of course, with a path to citizenship and a good education, these people will support themselves.
ebrown_p wrote:Foxfyre wrote:I have no problem with ebrown helping to educate anybody. That is a worthy thing. I am personally providing some financial support for children not related to me and also contribute to organizations that do that. I strongly encourage everybody who is financially able to do so to do that. If everybody would do just a little, we could make a huge difference.
So long as anybody uses his/her own resources to help others, my hat is off to him or or her. My problem is with the do-gooders who presume to use my money or put me at risk so they can feel righteous.
I feel the same way about you making me support your righteous little war (and putting my kids at risk), or your do-gooding little abstinance programs.
Hmm. What abstinance programs would that be? I don't recall being advocate for any of those or even discussing those in this or any other forum. This wouldn't be just another red herring thrown into the mix would it ebrown?
Quote:In a democracy, we all have to support things we would rather not.
No democracy survives for long when the people hold its laws in contempt and/or refuses to respect them.
Quote:Of course, with a path to citizenship and a good education, these people will support themselves.
That's the difference between you and me. I don't see them as 'these people'. I see them as people with all the possibilities and potential of any people. I advocate pushing and supporting governments to reform themselves so that all people in any nation can be safe and educated and prosper.
I do not advocate rewarding people who do not respect our laws as I think it is counterproductive for US citizens and legal immigrants, counter productive for illegal immigrants, and devastating to those countries who have no incentive to reform themselves when all they have to do is dump anybody they don't want on us.
e-Brown, we should deal with the situation as it is. It is utopian to expect the country to give the illegals equal rights. Moreover, if we did, the floodgates would open for an incrediblel number of more illegals. They would effectively outbid our poorer citizens for jobs, etc.
Advocate,
I think you are missing my basic point. The situation as it is provides an easy to exploit workforce who has no rights. This is great for unscrupulous businesses and bad for labor.
My main point is that it is best for American workers that the people here can not be exploited. The only way to do this is to give all workers rights.
Maintaining an underclass that can be exploited is a very difficult thing to defend (unless you think an exploitable workforce is good for business). It is certainly not good for workers.
If we won't or can't deport these workers (and I will argue we shouldn't and can't but that isn't relevant to this point) then it is very important for American labor that these workers have rights so they can't be exploited to the detriment of all (except big business).
It is not utopian... a path to citizenship is a practical and and even a political possibility.
For anyone who cares about labor-- it is an imperative.
Arizona Poll
The latest telephone
poll taken by the office of the Governor of
Arizona asked whether people who
live in Arizona think illegal
immigration is a serious problem:
A) 35% of respondents
answered: "Yes, it is a serious problem."
B) 65% of
respondents answered: "No es una problema serio."
Brown
You confused the hell out of me. You talk about workers being exploited. However, you coviently neglect to include that what makes it possible is their status as illegal aliens. In addition they because of this exploitation in effect lower the wage levels and rob jobs from US citizens. Employers who employ these people should be severely punished.
The American worker is being hit with a double whammy. Between jobs flowing off shore and those left being "stolen" by illegal aliens.
