What should be done about illegal immigration?

Reposted for the deliberately obtuse...

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7099/comparisonincarcerationmh5.jpg

FACT: 40% of the Hispanic population is Mexican.
FACT: Most of these are illegal aliens.
FACT: Doubling the incarceration rate for foreign born Mexicans (effectively pretending they committed more than 100% of the crimes of Mexican immigrants) would still not reach the incarceration rate of White people alone, let alone the National average.
FACT: Denying these facts to pretend they tend more towards criminality is defamatory at best, and straight bigoted at worst.

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There are more native born criminals then immigrant criminals? Wow, that's a surprise. I suppose the fact that there are proportionally more native born Americans then immigrants in the country might have something to do with that?

Question remains that your graph doesn't answer is what percentages are they? What percentage of illegal immigrants are incarcerated compared to what percentage of native born Americans are there?

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Where are these FACTS and on what are they based? Foreign born is NOT illegal. Immigrant is NOT the same thing as illegal. Illegal alien refers to those entering the country without permission or under false pretenses. That has NOTHING to do with race, color, country of origin, ethnicity, or anything that Obill seems to wish to make it.

But even if your source is making such assertions as FACTS, we need some foundation for them.

Consider the following (emphasis mine:

Quote:

The misleading data produced by academics and think tank researchers that show a lower incidence of crime by aliens is based upon a comparison of data that include all foreign born residents with data for the native born population. Because these data compare all foreign born residents to the native born population, they are largely irrelevant to describing the illegal alien crime incidence.2

A lower incidence of crime should be expected from a foreign born population that is largely legal immigrants and long-term nonimmigrants. This population includes persons who are screened for any previous criminal activities before they can get a green card, persons who are again screened for criminal activity before they can become U.S. citizens, and persons such as foreign students and professional workers who are at the least required to state under oath whether they have any criminal history before they can get a visa. In other words, this is a population carefully screened to assure that they are unlikely to engage in criminal activity. Something would be very wrong with our visa screening process if research did not reveal that the foreign-born were less likely to have committed crimes in the United States than the native-born population.

The same cannot, of course, be said for the illegal alien population. Their presence in the United States is based on their either illegally entering the country or entering under false pretenses. Those who sneak into the country undergo no form of screening for criminality or any other grounds for exclusion. Many in the illegal alien population end up incarcerated as a result of criminal activity at the time of their illegal entry, e.g., drug smuggling or alien smuggling. Other illegal aliens owe alien smugglers for assisting their illegal entry and end up being co-opted into criminal activity, such as drug distribution or prostitution, to pay off the debt.

The apparent linkage between illegal alien status and a higher incidence of crime was suggested in the data presented in a recent study of the costs of illegal immigration in Arizona.3 That study noted that Arizona in 2000 had the highest per capita rate of illegal aliens in the country and also ranked at the top of a number of crime indexes. It had the nation's highest per capita rate of property crimes, the highest rate of vehicle theft, and the 2nd highest rate in the country of larceny theft. For burglaries, it ranked 5th, for murders 9th, and for robberies and aggravated assaults it ranked 15th in the country.4

There is nothing about the population in Arizona that would appear to explain this pattern of crime incidence other than the illegal alien population and the proximity to the border with Mexico.

Lots of information and graphs focused on ILLEGALS at this site which I believe have been posted before but warrant posting again:
LOOK HERE
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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US notches world's highest incarceration rate

WASHINGTON - More than 5.6 million Americans are in prison or have served time there, according to a new report by the Justice Department released Sunday. That's 1 in 37 adults living in the United States, the highest incarceration level in the world.

It's the first time the US government has released estimates of the extent of imprisonment, and the report's statistics have broad implications for everything from state fiscal crises to how other nations view the American experience.

If current trends continue, it means that a black male in the United States would have about a 1 in 3 chance of going to prison during his lifetime. For a Hispanic male, it's 1 in 6; for a white male, 1 in 17.

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Ok, so there's the stats for Americans. 5.3 million of 300 million. 2%.

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Illegal Aliens represent a disproportionaly high share of the prison population

Introduction
Most Americans equate illegal aliens with a higher incidence of crime. Some academic researchers have attempted to prove that is a misimpression. But, in fact, data show that the American public understands the facts better than the academics.

Adult illegal aliens represented 2.94 percent of the total adult population of the country in 2003.1 By comparison, the illegal alien prison population represented a bit more than 4.54 percent of the overall prison population. Therefore, deportable criminal aliens were more than half again as likely to be incarcerated as their share of the population.

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The facts are pretty clear here Bill.

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I guess one way to know for sure would be to send all the illegals home, allow back those who undergo a reasonable background check and comply with the rules, and see if there is any signficiant difference in the crime statistics in those places where there are high concentrations of illegals. If there is no difference, then I would owe Bill that steak dinner.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Lots of information and graphs focused on ILLEGALS at this site which I believe have been posted before but warrant posting again:
LOOK HERE

That's the reason of that organisation, isn't it?

FAIR is an immigration reduction organisation, certainly unbiased and objective in the matter?
(Remember what you ask as kind of sources from others, Foxfyre?)

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Lots of information and graphs focused on ILLEGALS at this site which I believe have been posted before but warrant posting again:
LOOK HERE

That's the reason of that organisation, isn't it?

FAIR is an immigration reduction organisation, certainly unbiased and objective in the matter?
(Remember what you ask as kind of sources from others, Foxfyre?)

Yup. I don't accept a single source that is likely to be too biased to be objective or any single source that might have motive to skew an emphasis in one direction or another. But FAIR agrees with many other sources that have been posted, plus their supporters and admirers span the entire political spectrum so there is no ideological bias. (This is verifiable if you poke around that site for a bit.)

There isn't any ideological bias represented on this thread either. Easily the liberals outnumber the conservatives by more than 2 to 1 on A2K, at least in the politics forum. This is easily verified by looking a polls with an ideological emphasis--the most recent on the 'who would you vote for if you were voting today?' thread.

But look at the poll results on this thread. More than 2 to 1 are in favor of stronger immigration policy and enforcement. This is not a Republican vs Democrat issue or conservative vs liberal issue. It is a policy issue deserving of serious and reasoned debate as we search for solutions.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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Personally, I really don't mind the kind of source (if it is not a right-wing-racist-fascist) if their claims are well to be followed or if they present primary sources.

I only notice that you used a biased source.
And now do the very same what you accuse others to do: namely to excuse that use of such with a "yes, but ....".

Nothing negative with it.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Personally, I really don't mind the kind of source (if it is not a right-wing-racist-fascist) if their claims are well to be followed or if they present primary sources.

I only notice that you used a biased source.
And now do the very same what you accuse others to do: namely to excuse that use of such with a "yes, but ....".

Nothing negative with it.

There is no such thing as an unbiased source when there is any advocacy for a particular policy. Biased, however, is not necessarily synonymous with dishonest or devious or incompetent or incomplete or distorted; however all of those negatives can be attributed to those who use statistics related to all immigrants to mask criminality of those in the country ilegally.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

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Certainly not.

Ehem, why do YOU think so about our "biased" sources?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Certainly not.

Ehem, why do YOU think so about our "biased" sources?

I don't unless those sources try to make a point by omitting critical facts or use information in such a way that the "facts" become dishonest or devious or incompetent or incomplete or distorted. I would rather be right than spend all my time trying to make wrong look right. Show me credible information that illegals in this country are not committing a disproportionate amount of crime against the property or persons of others, and that will be my mantra on that subject.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

0 Replies

I do need to correct a previous mistatement of fact I made. The liberals/democrats do outnumber the conservative in the political forum by more than 2 to 1 based on various poll votes based on ideology or political preference.

Those supporting tougher immigration laws and/or enforcement, however, do not outnumber those opposing that by more than 2 to 1 as I said. It's now 49 for and 33 against I believe but the posts suggest there are conservatives and liberals on both sides of the issue and it is not an ideological or partisan matter.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

0 Replies

I don't have those sources here, Foxfyre.

When I studied law and social work, I've learnt in criminology that the reasons for a probably higher criminalisation of such a group.

When working the justice department (as probation officer and in prisons) and with the police, I've noticed the results.

This experience is, however, only related to Germany .... and to the reading of books and listening to profesors (re international).

As said already on the first pages of this thread, I think, any immigration should be regulated by the market.

If there are different laws, I consider them kind of stupid.
Which neither alters them nor makes a breaking of these laws legal.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Certainly not.

Ehem, why do YOU think so about our "biased" sources?

I don't unless those sources try to make a point by omitting critical facts or use information in such a way that the "facts" become dishonest or devious or incompetent or incomplete or distorted. I would rather be right than spend all my time trying to make wrong look right. Show me credible information that illegals in this country are not committing a disproportionate amount of crime against the property or persons of others, and that will be my mantra on that subject.

Well, the way FAIR represents the data is based on incarceration days rather than on the numbers of persons who committed a crime:

FAIR wrote:

Methodology and Findings

Data collected in the SCAAP reporting system were stated in terms of incarceration days. This eliminates any distortion based on length of sentence. Nationwide there were nearly 600 million incarceration days reported, and the number of those days attributable to identified and suspected illegal aliens were about 24.5 million incarceration days. That suggests that one of every 22 prisoners is a deportable alien (4.54%).

In other words, they are not looking at the number of crimes, but rather at the days people spend in prison, and calculating the percentage of crimes committed by illegal aliens from these numbers:

FAIR wrote:

Thus the likelihood that an illegal alien will be among those incarcerated (1 in 22) is significantly greater than the share of adult illegal aliens in the country (1 in 34). It is this greater likelihood of being incarcerated that clearly demonstrates that illegal aliens are disproportionately involved in criminal activity.

But that is in no way the only conclusion that can be drawn, provided the numbers are correct. It could very well be the wrong conclusion. Or a conclusion that omits critical facts is presented in such a way that the "facts" become dishonest or devious or incompetent or incomplete or distorted.

No, given that FAIR is an organisation that aims at cutting down immigration levels by 75 percent - how do we know that the data isn't presented in a dishonest or devious or incompetent or incomplete or distorted way?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I don't have those sources here, Foxfyre.

When I studied law and social work, I've learnt in criminology that the reasons for a probably higher criminalisation of such a group.

When working the justice department (as probation officer and in prisons) and with the police, I've noticed the results.

This experience is, however, only related to Germany .... and to the reading of books and listening to profesors (re international).

As said already on the first pages of this thread, I think, any immigration should be regulated by the market.

If there are different laws, I consider them kind of stupid.
Which neither alters them nor makes a breaking of these laws legal.

I wish we could focus the discussion on what the law/policy should reasonably be, legitimate means of enforcement, and what the penalty for breaking it should reasonably be. But only those supporting a policy that allows us to control our borders and determine who will and will not be allowed to be here legally are interested in having that discussion it seems. The rest are focused on accusing such supporters as being bigoted, racist, selfish, defamers, uncompassionate, etc. etc. etc.

The issue of crime is a valid component of the whole as are wages, national security, social services, education, language, etc.

And yes, market needs should definitely be a component of if not the most important component of any policies that are adopted.

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Let's have a look at the way FAIR calculates the numbers in the previously cited article:

Let's assume ten people are incarcerated. Let's assume there's one illegal alien, serving a 10 day sentence. Let's assume the rest are legal residents, serving 1 day each.

So that's a sum of 1x10 + 9*1 incarceration days, or 19 days.

Given those numbers, the conclusion FAIR would have drawn would be that illegal aliens are 10 times more likely to commit a crime than legal residents. Would that be a misrepresentation of the data?

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McGentrix wrote:

There are more native born criminals then immigrant criminals? Wow, that's a surprise. I suppose the fact that there are proportionally more native born Americans then immigrants in the country might have something to do with that?

Don't pretend to be that dense, McG. Incarceration rates are obviously a measure on a per capita basis. Laughing

McGentrix wrote:

Question remains that your graph doesn't answer is what percentages are they? What percentage of illegal immigrants are incarcerated compared to what percentage of native born Americans are there?

I put in a couple of hours research to locate the page that graph came from. I avoided the one-sided nonsense from both sides (like that crap Foxy's trying to pass off as real Laughing

). What I found is that there is no source that accurately separates the illegals, immigrants, Hispanics, etc. It does demonstrate conclusively, however, that immigrants in general are many times less likely to be criminals than American born Citizens. Anyone with a brain can figure from the fact illegals make up such a tremendous percentage of all immigrants, that their tendency towards crime must therefore be lower than average as well. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

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Let's see, immigrants have a lower crime rate than the general population.
Most immigrants are illegal (for sake of argument we will assume that the unsubstantiated 'most' is accurate)
Based on this, most illegals therefore have a lower crime rate than the general population.

Rolling Eyes

With calculations like this, no wonder O.J. Simpson walked.

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OCCOM BILL wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
There are more native born criminals then immigrant criminals? Wow, that's a surprise. I suppose the fact that there are proportionally more native born Americans then immigrants in the country might have something to do with that?
Don't pretend to be that dense, McG. Incarceration rates are obviously a measure on a per capita basis.

McGentrix wrote:
Question remains that your graph doesn't answer is what percentages are they? What percentage of illegal immigrants are incarcerated compared to what percentage of native born Americans are there?
I put in a couple of hours research to locate the page that graph came from. I avoided the one-sided nonsense from both sides (like that crap Foxy's trying to pass off as real ). What I found is that there is no source that accurately separates the illegals, immigrants, Hispanics, etc. It does demonstrate conclusively, however, that immigrants in general are many times less likely to be criminals than American born Citizens. Anyone with a brain can figure from the fact illegals make up such a tremendous percentage of all immigrants, that their tendency towards crime must therefore be lower than average as well. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

I don't think that you can take immigrant crime rate and then decide that illegal crime rates must be the same. That doesn't seem like a logical step, does it to you?

That like suggesting that native born crime rates are at x percentage and therefore black native born crime rates must be around the same rate despite the numerous statistics showing black crime rate is unreasonably high (due to lots of circumstances I'd rather not discuss in this thread).

Most immigrants that come here legally put forth an extra effort to fit in and keep out of trouble as they like living here and realize that a criminal life would place that life in jeopardy. The same can not be said of illegal immigrants can it?

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McGentrix wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
There are more native born criminals then immigrant criminals? Wow, that's a surprise. I suppose the fact that there are proportionally more native born Americans then immigrants in the country might have something to do with that?
Don't pretend to be that dense, McG. Incarceration rates are obviously a measure on a per capita basis.

McGentrix wrote:
Question remains that your graph doesn't answer is what percentages are they? What percentage of illegal immigrants are incarcerated compared to what percentage of native born Americans are there?
I put in a couple of hours research to locate the page that graph came from. I avoided the one-sided nonsense from both sides (like that crap Foxy's trying to pass off as real ). What I found is that there is no source that accurately separates the illegals, immigrants, Hispanics, etc. It does demonstrate conclusively, however, that immigrants in general are many times less likely to be criminals than American born Citizens. Anyone with a brain can figure from the fact illegals make up such a tremendous percentage of all immigrants, that their tendency towards crime must therefore be lower than average as well. I don't know how to make it any clearer.

I don't think that you can take immigrant crime rate and then decide that illegal crime rates must be the same. That doesn't seem like a logical step, does it to you?

That like suggesting that native born crime rates are at x percentage and therefore black native born crime rates must be around the same rate despite the numerous statistics showing black crime rate is unreasonably high (due to lots of circumstances I'd rather not discuss in this thread).

Most immigrants that come here legally put forth an extra effort to fit in and keep out of trouble as they like living here and realize that a criminal life would place that life in jeopardy. The same can not be said of illegal immigrants can it?

Yes. I worded my previous post badly, but my intent was to illustrate that the fact that IMMIGRANTS (i.e. people who came here legally) are measurably more law abiding than the general population does not translate into ILLEGALS who came here illegally or via false pretenses being equally law abiding even if they make up a substantial percentage of all foreign born persons in the USA.

My previous post could be interpreted to say that I think MOST illegals are committing serious crime in this country and that would be incorrect. I think in fact MOST illegals are not committing serious crime in this country. But all the statistics and testimony that Obill dismisses as "crap" point to some strong evidence that a disproportionate percentage of illegals are involved in serious crime.

I think that cannot be off limits in a debate re what our immigration policy should be.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

0 Replies

What should be done about illegal immigration?

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