OCCOM BILL wrote:Foxy, my house or place of business isn't the same as my country. Want proof? Easy. People have to meet different criteria to be welcomed in each. Any man, woman with or without child who wants to come to my country is welcome if they have no criminal past... beyond immigration nonsense in this country of immigrants.
The analogy is the same, however. If you want your country to be wide open to anybody in the world who wants to just wander in and demand everything U.S. citizens have, why have national borders or laws, rules, and/or regulations at all? Let's just chuck the Constitution, scrap all our laws, and let everybody do whatever they want wherever they want, no questions asked.
If you think that isn't such a good idea, then how will you know if people have no criminal past if you don't have immigration controls and border security?
Quote:CJhsa is disturbed because I can't understand that he thinks people are trying to steal what we've worked so hard for. Theft? Says who? Illegal immigration for decades has essentially been decriminalized... and is a minor inconvenience for the sake of putting up a silly front about closed borders that have never been closed and never should be. This is perhaps the greatest country in history precisely because our freedoms create opportunity that attract the best and the brightest from around the world. Ever notice how many of our greatest works were done by people not native to this soil?
Do you honestly think the world's 'brightest and best" are sneaking into this country? Nevertheless, are all of the illegals here to steal? Of course not. Many are hard working honest people who just want to get ahead. Unfortunately, however, an unacceptable number of them are committing crimes severe enough to warrant jail or prison. It's pretty safe to say that people willing to thumb their noses at our laws in order to be here are more likely to be willing to break other of our laws as well. And the only way to separate out good people from bad people is to have enforcable immigration policy and procedures.
Quote:Century's ago our forefathers committed genocide against some of the rightful owners of the land you seek to selfishly keep for yourself. F*ck the Red man right? His hereditary rights are no good, why? He isn't white. Others we picked a fight with, pretty much for the purpose of stealing their land, but f*ck the brown man right? His hereditary rights are no good, why? He isn't white. You really don't think it's about race?
This is a HUGE red herring. We're not talking about genocide or past crimes or F*ck anybody. I am as resentful of the white Candadian or Frenchman or German or Brit or anybody else who thinks he or she is above our laws. This is NOT about race as is testified by a large number of Hispanics, some of Mexican birth and/or Mexican ancestry in my own family. I haven't had this discussion with all, but those who I do know their opinions on this, are in favor of border control and an enforcable immigration policy. You want to call THEM racists?
Quote:The brown man seeks only work and an opportunity to provide for his family on the land his forefathers owned. You can't even allow him this?
Well hell, lets give all the land back to whomever used to own it. You want to apply this standard to the entire world? When some Native American shows up on your doorstep to demand the land that once belonged to his people, are you going to hand over the keys? Shall the people France and Germany and Great Britain and--well you can name just about any place in the world--move over and accommodate all other people whose ancesters once occupied that land? NEWS FLASH: It would be amazing if there is any place on earth that is still occupied by ancesters of its original inhabitants. Can you see how silly this argument is?
Quote:Arbitrary lines in the sand are essentially just something to fight over. Rather than beefing up the border we should be working toward doing away with it. Yes, Mexico is poor and needy and so what? Remove the border restrictions equilaterally and watch their economy pick up as United States dollars find their way there as fast as poor hungry people currently find there way here.
Then lets start with you. You share your job, your house, your space with a couple of illegals from anywhere--be sure to pick up the tab indefinitely now--and get back to me. If you find that arrangement pleasing, I'll rethink my position.
Quote:Among the principals this country was founded on is that there is not a finite amount of money in the world. That's the beauty of currency. Yes, there are billions of hungry people out there, and they won't all fit here. So what's the solution? Build a wall to keep the have nots out and utterly ignore their plight because there's nothing we can do about it? Bull Sh!t
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Again let it start with you. Will you make your financial statements public to demonstrate that you are personally doing all you can do to help the less fortunate of the world? When you do, you'll have the moral authority to demand that the rest of us do that.
Quote:Our gift doesn't have to be money. Grant them opportunity to mature into economies that rival ours. How? Stop being so friggin selfish. You don't have to stand on another man's neck to make a buck in this country. There's room for competition and more help benefits employers and employees alike, whether it be here or in a resort property that is established there.
And why can't we use our laws and rules and regulations to better accommodate those who need to be here, or, more importantly, those we need to be here? Why are you so gung ho to scrap the law and remove all barriers for all the poor of the world to move in here?
And while that sounds noble, how long do you think the USA can do that and remain in a position to help anybody? How long would it be before we were just a large third world country without the ability to help anybody?
Quote:In general terms: The best and the brightest will always excel. The mediocre will always be mediocre and those with the least aptitude will always be poor. Opportunity is kind of like love in that when you give more; it doesn't mean you have less. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm not suggesting we GIVE anyone anything beyond the same opportunity that you and I enjoy. What is there to be afraid of? If more immigrants succeed, they create more opportunity for those they've bested. Rags to riches stories define these United States, and the more often that happens, the more our economy grows.
Beautiful speech that is complete irrelevent to the subject of border control and immigration policy.
Quote:When it comes to race; it's high time we stop squabbling over such petty differences of color and nationality and recognize we all belong to the human race. I am at times a driven man, who seeks to conquer in business. That never means I wish to conquer my competition; only to out-perform them. The more people who succeed, the bigger the pie gets. I don't need to limit the size of your slice to increase mine.
To do the liberalspeak dishonest tactic of trying to make anything that can't be defended with reason or logic into a race issue, is really beheath you. There isn't a single person on the pro-border control side of this debate who is basing their opinion or conclusions on race in any way. To imply that they are is dishonest and insulting.
Quote:Now, truth be told, in my fairytale global economy; citizens of the United States on the average may take a bit of a hit, as citizens of other countries prosper. Information and service industries don't rely on the gold mine of resources we call home as much as they used to. So be it. I am not and never will be comfortable being the citizen of the rich country if to maintain that status we continue to stand on the necks of the poor. Believing that is fair and just is the height of hypocrisy in this land of opportunity.
Instead of advocating that the USA 'take a hit', I suggest you just move someplace poor. Then you can feel righteous and morally superior without taking down one of the few countries with the ability to actually help others when they need help.
Quote:No one is asking you to give up your job or your business... just that you level the playing field for those who are poor, through no fault of their own, for having been born on the wrong side of some arbitrary line in the sand. Only those on the very bottom of the aptitude scale should fear the competition... and even then they are not justified in doing so if a line in the sand is their only excuse. You talk about entitlements for immigrants. That is a problem with entitlements, not immigrants. I've known a great number of immigrants, both legal and illegal and can tell you collectively they work harder and save more than your average American. This is bad? Why? Because the lazy white man may have to work a little harder to continue to earn his position? Talk about an ill-gotten entitlement. I'll eat my words the day a company (or the economy at large) suffers because there are employees willing to produce more for less. That day won't come. This effectively increases the opportunity for everyone, while shutting out no one, for no good cause
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Another pretty speech that has absolutely no bearing on this debate unless you think there should be no laws and no regulation and no barriers preventing anybody who wants to be in the USA to be here.
Quote:It sickens me to here people talk about preventable disease as an excuse to keep people out. They're people for Dog's sake and immunization simply cannot be that expensive to produce on the scale that it is required. I'm no fan of entitlements myself... I prefer hands up over hands out, but there are certain realities that are simply inexcusable. No man woman or child should suffer for lack of an easily produced vaccine and no one should have to go hungry. Seems impossible because people like you want to limit the opportunities for wealth to people born on the appropriate soil... and the burden is just too big for us to shoulder. Bull Sh!t. Remove the inhumane restrictions on opportunity and watch the overall quantity of wealth in the world start accelerating at a ludicrous pace.
Oh well then. By all means we should go out and FIND people with tuberculosis and small pox and polio and any other communicable disease and bring them here and put the entire population at much higher risk. Yeah, that sounds like a good plan, don't you think?
Don't you see how silly and counterproductive that is?
Quote:I contribute to charities in a variety of ways as well, but this amounts to small handouts rather than a hand up. It's tough to feel good about giving a man a fish while denying him the opportunity to fish for himself. If people could just collectively understand that there is not a finite amount of wealth to be had; they probably wouldn't be so fiercely selfish about denying the next man a level playing field. Perhaps somebody smarter than me (like Thomas) could explain the dynamics of currency in a way that would put the idiotic notion that you have to deny another man opportunity to maintain your own. Short term hits on some people would result in a net gain for more people. This, is the American way. This is nature's survival of the fittest embodied in a philosophy that rewards production, not birth-rights for the weak, or lazy. Stop fearing the black and brown man from other countries. You need not take food off your plate in order for him to eat. And, Great Walls are not for civilized countries. A truly civilized country shouldn't require one.
Yeeks, I'm rambling. Sorry about that.
Again if you think taking away success, opportunity, and ability from some people will raise up others, you need some fresh grounding in basic economics. It is one of the worst doctrines of liberalism that some people should not be able to succeed or prosper more than others.
And I know that you know that.
And you still owe the pro-immigration-control people on this board an apology when you called us racist. We aren't. The ones promoting racism are those who seem to think the 'brown people' et al are incapable of getting ahead in any way without the help of white, rich Americans. And that kind of racism, my friend, is the most destructive form of racism of all.
Nobody here has advocated keeping anybody out who who wants to work here in a necessary job and/or who wants to be an American with all that being American means. We are only saying, that everybody who comes should be welcome and invited and that we should bring in only those who can be assimilated seamlessly into the American culture.
We won't support bringing in people who want to import the miserable policies and mindset that made their own countries places they wish to leave.
You are wrong to call us racist. You should apologize.
