50
   

What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 08:01 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Quote:

I do have my own point of view which I believe is shared by the majority of Americans.


If by majority you mean "less than thirty percent" I won't disagree with any part of your last post.


No, I mean by more than 50%. I don't think there has been any national poll yet that offered the two options I mentioned, and I think at such time as there is, the majority will not opt for amnesty as it is proposed but will opt for a more acceptable way to accommodate those who want and need to be here.

So if I am right, and that 50+% majority that I believe exists should have the opportunity to make the decision that way, will you go along with it? Or will you oppose (obstruct?) it?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 09:55 am
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/jh/2006/jh061223.gif
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 11:06 am
Well, Foxy... You and I both know that immigration policy will be set by our elected officials.

Last session of Congress, the Republican controlled Senate passed a piece of legislation that was acceptable (although not perfect) to people on my side of the argument.

The Republican controlled House passed their own bill which was sponsored, written and preferred by people on your side of the argument.

Americans polled directly on these two pieces of legislation clearly favored the Senate legislation, which allowed for a path to citizenship for immigrations here illegally now, provided they meet certain conditions.

The Republican controlled house ignored these polls and refused to even bring the Senate legislation to the floor for an up or down vote. The chose instead to bring the issue to the adoring American public who they believed would keep them in office on a wave of anger against immigration policy.

Then they lost the election.

Now almost all of the newly elected Senators and House Representatives (with the sole exception of Bilbray that I am aware of ) are in favor of the Senate Bill (which includes a path to citizanship). Surprisingly the sole Democratic Senate candidate who was opposed to this leglislation was Ford in Tennasee (who was won of the only surprise Democratic losses).

So the leglislative process will march on.

The House Bill failed to become law even when the anti-"illegal"-immigrant legislators controlled the House. They had their chance and could not win the support of the majority of Americans.

Now Congress will try again with much more pro-immigrant legislators and, according to the polls, the support of the Majority of American voters.

Elected officials, who expressed support of Comprehensive Immigration reform before they were elected... and won the votes needed to become elected officials, will now bring forward a bill that includes a path to citizenship combined with border security methods.

That is Democracy... and that is what I will support.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 11:10 am
old europe wrote:
old europe wrote:
Furthermore, he fails to mention that the federal prison population represents less than 10 percent of the total US prison population (according to the US Department of Justice). Therefore, the 17 percent of illegal aliens in federal prisons make up less than 1,7 percent of the total prison population.


Actually - my bad. I made a mistake, been looking at old data. If you will follow this link here you will find these numbers:

U.S. Department of Justice · Office of Justice Programs wrote:
The Federal prison population totaled 187,618 at yearend 2005,
up from 180,328 at yearend 2004. About 12% of all prisoners
were serving time in the Federal system.


So my statement should read:

Therefore, the 17 percent of illegal aliens in federal prisons make up about 2 percent of the total prison population.


Old Europe - the mistake you corrected in your later post is not the principal one in your original calculation.

Perhaps you're unaware of applicable U.S. criminal law? Unfortunately I'm not in a position to give a legal opinion, but to the extent that everyone must have some understanding of the law Im fairly certain that aliens convicted of serious crimes (assumed of all federal prison inmates) are automatically deported at the end of their sentences.

That they would ipso facto be illegal aliens if subsequently apprehended in the US isn't in doubt, though whether that designation applies to them while still in prison from a legal standpoint is a point on which learned counsel would be useful. For statistical purposes, and if the prisoners are so classified, the Bureau of Prisons numbers must be considered authoritative for federal detention facilities.

For state and local prisons: if you followed the methodology in the GAO study previously linked here, consisting of obtaining the FBI number assigned to arrested illegal aliens and double-checking with local prisons requesting federal government reimbursement for their detention, you'll see that enormous numbers of people fall through the cracks, as no overlap between FBI numbers and local prison requests can be obtained.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 11:17 am
P.S. these are the Bureau of Prisons statistics posted 2 pages back:

Quote:

Citizenship

United States: 141,358 (73.1 %)
Mexico: 32,655 (16.9 %)
Colombia: 3,234 (1.7 %)
Cuba: 1,633 (0.8 %)
Dominican Republic: 3,230 (1.7 %)
Other/Unknown: 11,249 (5.8 %)


Separately, if the federal prison inmates above really are only 10% of the total prison population, the total must be about 2 million. Can someone confirm this number?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 11:35 am
Yeap - here's a link.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 11:39 am
From the above website:

Prison Brief of the United States of America
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 12:32 pm
High Seas wrote:
Perhaps you're unaware of applicable U.S. criminal law? Unfortunately I'm not in a position to give a legal opinion, but to the extent that everyone must have some understanding of the law Im fairly certain that aliens convicted of serious crimes (assumed of all federal prison inmates) are automatically deported at the end of their sentences.


I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. The US Department of Justice clearly distinguishes between legal and illegal aliens when it comes to the noncitizen prison population of US federal prisons.

High Seas wrote:
That they would ipso facto be illegal aliens if subsequently apprehended in the US isn't in doubt, though whether that designation applies to them while still in prison from a legal standpoint is a point on which learned counsel would be useful. For statistical purposes, and if the prisoners are so classified, the Bureau of Prisons numbers must be considered authoritative for federal detention facilities.


As far as I understand the numbers, the US Department of Justice refers to the legal status of aliens at the beginning of the prosecution:

[URL=http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/nifcjs.txt]The US Department of Justice[/URL] wrote:
Status of noncitizens

------------------------

The U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) assigns a
status to identify the legality of a noncitizen's presence in
the United States. The two statuses used include:

(1) legal aliens -- noncitizens who enter the United States
after inspection and have not violated the terms of their
admission;

(2) illegal aliens -- noncitizens who (a) enter the United
States without having been admitted after inspection or without
presenting themselves for inspection or (b) legally enter the
United States but who subsequently violate a condition of their
visa, for example, by remaining in the United States beyond the
period authorized or by committing a criminal offense.

Criminal aliens are noncitizens who have been convicted of
certain felonies, such as, for example, crimes of moral
turpitude (like murder, manslaughter, rape), drug trafficking
offenses, certain firearms offenses, or certain offenses
relating to national security (A criminal alien is defined by
statute at 8 U.S.C Section 1251(a)(2). The statute describes specific
offenses for which noncitizens can be deported.)

By law, noncitizens classified as criminal aliens are deportable
once criminal proceedings against them have been terminated or
after they have completed serving their sentence.

Fifty-five percent of the noncitizens prosecuted in U.S.
district courts were identified by pretrial service officers as
legal aliens at the beginning of their prosecution.




High Seas wrote:
For state and local prisons: if you followed the methodology in the GAO study previously linked here, consisting of obtaining the FBI number assigned to arrested illegal aliens and double-checking with local prisons requesting federal government reimbursement for their detention, you'll see that enormous numbers of people fall through the cracks, as no overlap between FBI numbers and local prison requests can be obtained.


I think I repeatedly pointed out that I was referring to the federal prison population, High Seas. I don't know how I could have made myself any clearer on that point.

The article Foxfyre had posted was referring to the federal prison population - which constitutes about 12% of the total prison population (yes, that would be more than 2 million people) - and set this number in relation with the total number of illegal aliens in the United States - invoking a most misleading impression.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 12:43 pm
High Seas wrote:
P.S. these are the Bureau of Prisons statistics posted 2 pages back:

Quote:

Citizenship

United States: 141,358 (73.1 %)
Mexico: 32,655 (16.9 %)
Colombia: 3,234 (1.7 %)
Cuba: 1,633 (0.8 %)
Dominican Republic: 3,230 (1.7 %)
Other/Unknown: 11,249 (5.8 %)


Seperately, I was under the impression that the topic we were talking about was the claim that illegal aliens commit a disproportionate number of crimes in the United States.

While your numbers on citizenship of inmates are interesting, they give no information about the legal status of the prisoners.

Apart from these numbers on citizenship you posted, the Bureau of Justice Statistics numbers seem to reveal that less than 27 percent of these prisoners were noncitizens, and that less than 63 percent of these noncitizens (or less than 17 percent of the total federal prison population, which, in itself, makes up for only about 12 percent of the total US prison population) were classified as illegal aliens at the beginning of the prosecution.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 12:54 pm
Walter,

These statistics are generally taken (in some rather softheaded quarters) as a measure of prevailing social injustice, with the United States, China, and Russia leading the list. Indeed the notes on the opening page of the linked document strongly imply this.

The absurdity of this notion is revealed in some of the details. Nigeria and Haiti, two of the most lawless and dangerous countries in the world, have incarceration rates in the low 30s -- among the lowest in the world. In these cases the low incarceration rates are more an indicator of the breakdown of the rule of law and law enforcement than anything else. This, of course, means high levels of social injustice, not the reverse!
Similar observations can be made about several South American countries, notably Brasil, Peru, and Colombia.

Even a brief scan reveals other easily detectable patterns. Why are the rates in Bermuda and the former British possessions in the Caribbean so high? Can there be other meaningful correlations of interest here?

The world is a complex place and there are often many factors at work, besides those indicated in such simple-minded "analyses". In many respects Iceland appears to be a model of probity with low incarceration, crime, and poverty rates. That, however does not reveal the full nature of this rather intolerant, monocultural society, which allows virtually no immigration, and (at least until a few years ago) had a rather notable problem with alcohol abuse.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 01:07 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
These statistics are generally taken (in some rather softheaded quarters) as a measure of prevailing social injustice, with the United States, China, and Russia leading the list. Indeed the notes on the opening page of the linked document strongly imply this.
... .....


Information is updated on a monthly basis using data from reputable sources - mostly the national offices of statistcs (and all are noted).

The question is indeed why the prison population in some countries is higher than in others.
A simple answer is that other country's courts don't send people for minor offenses in prisons.


These data haven't been disputed so far - and were only given here because the dear lady asked for confirmation (and I always try to link them when answering her questions)
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 01:11 pm
George,

I don't think Walter was implying anything of the above. I think the link he provided was merely in reply to High Seas's astonishment that, given that the US federal prison population would only account for 12 percent of the total US prison population, that number must be around 2 million people.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 01:13 pm
Buggrit. I hate slow connections.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 01:18 pm
Walter, old europe,

Acknowledged. Perhaps I am merely reacting to points often made elsewhere, and, as well, to the smarmy tone of the notes at the head of the linked document. (Perhaps I am anti British!)

However, I believe the points I made are accurate. More to the point they also suggest that, what may be the central issue here - the notion that incarceration rates imply that illegal immigrants are dangerous people - is probably meaningless and wrong.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 01:22 pm
georgeob1 wrote:

Acknowledged. Perhaps I am merely reacting to points often made elsewhere, and, as well, to the smarmy tone of the notes at the head of the linked document. (Perhaps I am anti British!)


Actually, King's College-School of Law has an international reputation, even in the USA.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 01:23 pm
Not with me. Certainly their introductory notes to the statistical list didn't suggest either a correct understanding or meaningful interpretation of their own data. I wouldn't have accepted that as a work product from anyone working for me.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 01:36 pm
But with the rankings .... and salaries for absolvents.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 01:47 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Not with me. Certainly their introductory notes to the statistical list didn't suggest either a correct understanding or meaningful interpretation of their own data. I wouldn't have accepted that as a work product from anyone working for me.


Really, George? Can you point out why you find this introduction "smarmy"?

Quote:
Introduction

The World Prison Population List gives details of the
number of prisoners held in 211 independent countries
and dependent territories. It shows the differences in
the level of imprisonment across the world and makes
possible an estimate of the world prison population
total. The information is the latest available at the end of
February 2005.

This is the sixth edition of the List. Previous editions
were published by the Research and Statistics
Directorate of the UK Home Office. ICPS is happy to
continue this work, which complements the information
which it already publishes and updates regularly on
the World Prison Brief section of its website www.
prisonstudies.org.

It has been compiled, like previous editions, from a
variety of sources. In almost all cases the original
source is the national prison administration of the
country concerned, or else the Ministry responsible for
the prison administration. Most figures relate to dates
between mid-2002 and the end of February 2005. Since
prison population rates (per 100,000 of the national
population) are based on estimates of the national
population they should not be regarded as precise. In
order to compare prison population rates in different
regions of the world, and to estimate the number
of persons held in prison in the countries for which
information is not available, median rates have been
used because they minimise the effect of countries with
rates that are untypically high or low.

The List has a number of weaknesses. Figures are
not available for eleven countries and the information
does not relate to the same date. Comparability is
further compromised by different practice in different
countries, for example with regard to whether all pretrial
detainees and juveniles are held under the authority
of the prison administration, and also whether the
prison administration is responsible for psychiatrically ill
offenders and offenders being detained for treatment for
alcoholism and drug addiction. People held in custody
are usually omitted from national totals if they are not
under the authority of the prison administration.

Despite its limitations it is hoped that the World Prison
Population List will be found useful by academic
criminologists who are studying the use of imprisonment
world-wide and by non-governmental organisations who
are interested in variations in criminal justice practice.
The data - for all its imperfections - may prompt fresh
thought among policy makers and other criminal justice
experts about the size of the prison population in their
country, given the high costs and disputed efficacy of
imprisonment.


Seems to me they're not doing such a bad job in pointing out the shortcomings of their statistics.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 01:57 pm
old europe wrote:

Really, George? Can you point out why you find this introduction "smarmy"?

Seems to me they're not doing such a bad job in pointing out the shortcomings of their statistics.


I agree ... not doing a bad job. However not a great one that should serve as a standard for the world, as was alledged. I would not have accepted it, and routinely reject equivalent material when it is offered to me (but only rarely get repeatedly from the same person).

The obvious and overwhelmingly significant omission from the introduction was the absence of any reference whatever to the effectiveness of the rule of law or corruption within law enforcement, in the various countries. This omission, coming as it does from this source, is frankly astounding.

That they then went on to beat their breast for relatively trivial and obvious matters is indeed smarmy.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jan, 2007 02:07 pm
Well, that's a valid point. However, I saw it merely as an introduction to statistics on prison populations - not an analysis of the underlying reasons.

Actually, the issue you bring up - the relation of percentage of people in prison to an effective law enforcement system - would be quite interesting, even if a wee bit off topic regarding the role of illegal aliens in the criminal statistics of the United States.

(Hey, I'm really enjoying these intelligent discussions, btw....)
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 08/12/2025 at 02:47:00