What should be done about illegal immigration?

The second question I can answer with personal experience...

The people who are here are parts of our communities. They have been working here, the have lives here and they desparately want to become Americans.

Sending someone who has been here for years, who has ties and family and a community is tragic. I know kids who have grown up here since they were babies and this country is all they ever knew. I know a married couple where a citizen (who grew up here) is married to an undocumented immigrant with both American and undocumented kids. They need to choose to live illegally, or risk breaking up the family or have an American unable to live in his country.

I have special sympathy for people I know because they are my friends. When you understand what people go through, you understand that they are human beings.

I think the fact that families will be broken and kids will be sent to what is to them a foreign country make this a special case for compassion.

As far as the political difference between border states and non-border states, I can only speculate.

It seems that the political affiliation of people has a lot to do with their views on the immigration debate (although I know there are exceptions I think there are broad generalization that are fairly accurate). The counties that are traditionally Conservative Republican on other issues (gun rights, abortion, taxes etc.) tend to be more militantly anti-"illegal"-immigrant.

An article posted above pointed out that New Mexico (which is a border state) is much less up in arms then Texas (which is the most Conservative of Conservative states).

I am also a bit perplexed about the poltics of people who supposedly care about closing the border.

The main issue for me is compassion for the people who have been living and working and contributing to our economy and raising families here. I want a path to citizenship for these people.

A solution that has a path to citizenship combined with increased border security and (more importantly) real workplace enforcment would be great! Even better would be to resolve the issues the business community has with labor-- perhaps by a reasonable guest worker program, to help relieve on part of the demand for illegal labor.

The compromise solution, compassion with border security, would be the best way to end the problems at the border.

I don't understand why conservatives are so intent on punishing the people here now, most of whom want to be Americans and most of whom are working hard to live good lives-- that they refuse a compromise that would address the very problems that they say they want to solve.

No doubt the border states will be bothered more by illegal immigration, but national borders is not a state issue. The added attention for hispanics, I am sure, is a simple matter of numbers.

My position is quite simple: Were I living in Mexico with a hungry family, I'd like to think I'd have the courage to become an illegal alien here in the States. That being the case, I can not condemn another man for doing the same.

Ps. I haven't kept up with this thread, but any newcomers can safely assume that Ebrown speaks for me on this one.

Gee, Bill, I didn't know you had such a low opinion of me. (Ebrown thinks and has inferred all sorts of unpleasant things about anybody, especially me, who disagrees with him. I sort of think you don't debate that way, so you might want to rethink agreeing that Ebrown speaks for you.)

Foxfyre, I am sorry if I have insulted you. I have always had the policy of trying to attack positions not the people who have them. Of late I have realized that at times I cross my own line especially on this issue. Lately I have been making an extra effort to argue the points without getting personal. Iif I have attacked you personally-- I am sorry.

I find myself getting upset with some of your posts. When I them, I get the feeling that anyone who thinks that illegal immigrants should be given the opportunity to become citizens is anti-American. You should understand that there are millions of American citizens who sincerely disagree with you.

We don't like the implication that you think we are trying to destroy America simply because we disagree with you. From our perspective, we are upholding American values that we care deeply about and working for a society that is stronger, more diverse and more compassionate.

If you will note that people can be in favor of diversity and compassion for illegal immigrants and still love America, I will feel better. For the record , although I disagree with you, I accept that you have a sincere love for your country.

Way to many pages to catch up… but I'll clarify that he speaks for me as far as position is concerned. K? :cool:

Apology accepted. However, I have not said that those on your side of the fence are anti-American nor have I even suggested that you are 'trying to destroy America'. I have not attacked you in any way for your views and any reference to you personally has been in self defense as you have been quite personally unpleasant in many of your posts throughout this thread including accusing me of many things of which I clearly was not guilty. I especially resented the implications that I was racist because I thought everybody should be obeying the law lest the law become meaningless.

I am in a border state and have recently worked in a field where I saw illegal immigration up close and personal. A substantial percentage of our state prison population is comprised of illegals who have committed serious crimes. A large number of insurance claims from work comp to burglaries to drunk drivers to other negative incidents have been linked to illegals over the past several years. Those companies who are most likely hiring illegals are providing substandard wages with no benefits and many aren't picky about such things as safety standards.

All this plus the evidence (much posted on this thread) that far more sinister folks are coming across the border than the poor Mexicans who just want to make a buck, a porous border is not good for New Mexico and it is not good for America.

Yes I can and do care about poor people who just want a better shot for themselves and/or their families. But the world is full of people like these and we do much better dealing with that where they are. I am all for making it easier for good people to move here to work and raise their families. But I think those doing that legally should be the ones welcomed. Otherwise I believe we will be adopting policies that could weaken our own country to the point that we are unable to help ourselves, much less anybody else.

We have also posted evidence that the situation is also not good for Mexico.

The McCain/Kennedy bill is mostly a rewrite of an immigration 'reform' that has already been tried, that failed, and that opened the floodgates that have guadrupled the illegal population.

The Republicans failed to do anything really meaningful, and the Democrats seem determined to just repeat the failed policies of the past.

I think we can do better.

A comprehensive solution must contain a path to citizenship.

We can combine this with border security and effective forms of workplace enforcement. But a path to citizenship (without having to leave the country and pray) is an idea that is supported by a majority of Americans and has enough political momentum that it will be a part of any solution.

The recent failure the issue of "amnesty" in the election last month is a symbol of where we stand. People who made opposition to "amnesty" a major part of the campaign lost big. People who supported a path to citizenship won in the great majority of cases.

The path to citizenship doesn't impact the cases you bring up repeatedly. A path to citizenship is for people who work hard, haven't commited felonies and are good decent people.

I don't want people who have commited a felony to be given citizenship. I want the hard working families I know and love to be given citizenship. Letting my friend Cristina, who has grown up here and excelled in high school, go to college is not going to make smuggling any more of a problem.

A path to citizenship will also reduce the number of people who drive without licenses and insurance. It will also make tax collection more straight forward and draw people into the open as full members of society (instead of having to live in the shadows).

I understand you feel that letting immigrants who have broken a law gain citizenship is rewarding a illegal act. And I understand that you don't think the fines, taxes and background checks in the Senate bill are punishment enough.

But you should understand that lots of Americans disagree with you; many of us because we feel that offering this form of compassion and understanding to our neighbors is important part of who we are.

Because of this it is now clear that any immigration bill will contain a path to citizenship (without the "leave and pray" provision). The people who oppose a path to citizenship under any circumstances are in the position of blocking legislation that could adress many immigration issues.

I hope that you will join a coalition of us who want both a compassionate solution to people who are living here now, along with intelligent measures to stop the illegal flow accross the borders.

I believe we can do both.

Brown.
I know this is a wasteof time and effort however you said
The path to citizenship doesn't impact the cases you bring up repeatedly. I disagree, these people are in the US as a result of an illegal action. That is the felony they have committed.

It seems to me that they have committed a felony by entering the country illegally though.

Thomas,

These are not felonies.

THE MEXICAN INVASION

On yesterday's show we discussed news reports that politicians on both sides of the aisle in Washington are saying that one of the first laws passed by the 110th Congress with it's Democrat majority will be amnesty for illegal aliens. Oh, they won't call it amnesty, but amnesty it will be. The 12 to 20 million illegal aliens now in this country will be granted amnesty and given a path to citizenship. And don't expect a veto of this legislation from President Bush. This has been his goal all along.

We all know what will happen then. The Mexican Invasion of the United States will only increase, with millions more crossing the border in the next few years. There will be nothing in this new legislation that will stem the invasion tide. In fact, the Democrats are probably going to oppose any funding to get that 700-mile wall on the Mexican/U.S. border built.

Yesterday I set forth a five-point plan for ending the Mexican invasion and convincing the illegals already in this country to head back home. This plan is certainly not original with me. It has been gleaned from a variety of sources. I can think of no better way to end the invasion, send the invasion force back home, while still satisfying our need for the labor that has been provided by the invaders ... all at a minimal cost to government.

We received many emails yesterday asking me to put the plan in writing on the Nuze ... so here you go, step-by-step

1. Close the border.

If a broken pipe is flooding your basement your first task is to stop the water from coming in. It makes no sense at all to start trying to clean up while the water is still pouring in. There can be no question that it is the responsibility of our federal government to protect our borders. This is a responsibility that is being ignored. Take whatever resources you need, the military, the national guard .. whatever .. and shut the borders down. Concertina wire can be strung across the entire border in a matter of days or weeks.

2. Punish those who employ and house illegal aliens.

Pass a set of laws that establish harsh punishment for employers who hire illegal aliens and for commercial landlords who house them. The government would establish a minimum set of standards that an employer and a landlord must met when determining the legality of someone applying for employment. Private firms already exist who provide verification services to employers. These firms will spread as the demand for their services expand. Any business or landlord who hires or rents space to an illegal alien without doing due-diligence to assure that employees legal status will be subject to fines and punishment so harsh that the downside will be too great to risk.

3. Shut down all but emergency social services to illegal aliens.

This one is pretty self-explanatory. If you are in this country illegally the only government services you will be entitled to will be normal law enforcement services and services necessary to save your life in the event of a medical emergency. Any illegal alien presenting himself to a hospital for such services shall be treated, stabilized and deported.

4. Deny federal funds to all cities who have so-called "sanctuary laws."

These are law that prohibit police and law enforcement from investigation the legal status of those they may suspect of being in this country illegally. These laws are directly implicated in the deaths of law enforcement officers and private citizens.

5. Establish a guest worker program.

Establish a guest worker program designed to make sure that American businesses, especially agriculture, has access to the workers they need. Non-citizens can register to become guest workers, but registration can only take place in the countries where they legally reside. NO guest worker permits will be issued in the United States. Employment for Guest Workers will be arranged ONLY through privately owned guest worker agencies operating under a strict set of federally mandated rules. When a U.S. employer needs guest workers he will supply a list of requirements to one of these employment agencies. That agency will then arrange for the required workers through a counterpart in Mexico, India ... wherever. The employment agency will be responsible for transporting the guest worker to and from the place of employment, and for finding housing for that guest worker while here. The guest worker will be paid ONLY through the employment agency. The agency will, in turn, charge the employer for the guest worker's salary, transportation costs to and from this country, and housing costs. The employer may, if desired, provide housing for the guest worker. When the employer no longer needs the services of the guest worker, the employment agency will provide for transportation of that guest worker back to his own country.

The advantage of this plan is that there is no way for someone in this country illegally to live and work unless they are being harbored and their expenses covered by a legal resident or citizen. With the guest worker program in place no intelligent employer is going to take the chance of a large fine or imprisonment by hiring an illegal. All they have to do is contact the employment agency and the guest worker arrives soon thereafter!

This program has one big drawback. The guest workers aren't allowed to vote in U.S. elections. With the Democrats in control of the congress, there is little chance of seeing anything like this implemented.

They are, according to Websters Legal Dictionary, served on the Web by Findlaw.

[b]felony[/b] ['fe-le-ne] pl: -nies : a crime that has a greater punishment imposed by statute than that imposed on a misdemeanor specif : a federal crime for which the punishment may be death or imprisonment for more than a year

US Code 1325 mentions three particular forms of "improper entry". It punishes them with up up to two years, up to $500, and up to five years respectively. It punishes forms #1 and #3 under "title 18 -- crimes and criminal procedure". Ergo, most forms of improper entry are felonies.

Fine. But many illegal immigrants have overstayed a visa or were waved through a border crossing and have not commited a felony, I don't know what the percentage is. Some illegal immigrants came with their parents as kids and are guilty of no crime.

But it doesn't matter. To me at least, there a big difference between crossing a border or overstaying a visa, to the other felonies like rape and murder.

If you are making a technical semantic point, then I won't argue. If you are trying to make a comparison between serious crimes like rape and murder with immigration crimes like overstaying a visa or crossing a border, I don't think most Americans will buy this.

Why not? While individually, the crime might not be much of a problem, in toto it is a large one.

Enter the country without permission = felony charges brought against you. While I'm not against the 'path to citizenship,' I don't think it changes the letter of the law....

Cycloptichorn

ebrown_p
A rose by any other name is still a rose. And a crime by what other label you wish to give it is still a crime.
It seems that since your argument has failed you are reduced to classifying crimes by their seriousness. I concede rape and murder is more serious than illegal entry into the US. Is that justification for illegal entry?
I will also concede that it would not be possible or reasonable to send people who have children who are by birth American citizens back from whence they came. However, IMO all others should be subject of deportation. And for those who remain in the US never to be able to achieve American citizenship and be allowed to vote.

Well Au,

You and I obviously disagree-- but I am hoping we can come up with a compromise solution. As I have said repeatedly, it is very important for me (and for millions of American citizens) that our friends and neighbors who are now here illegally be given the chance to become legal.

If border security and workplace enforcement are really important to you, then we can work together to make a bill that contains security, workplace enforcement combined with a path to citizenship.

I am hoping that people with your opinion will not block progress on this compromise that most Americans agree with.

Ebrown,

I also believe that the solution is to make those that are here, legal. I'm willing to overlook the fact that they came here illegally, IF we can close the border and say 'okay, that's it, no more for right now.'

The US has had its ups and downs in immigration over our history and there is no reason why we couldn't slow the tide somewhat to give our society some time to adjust. I think that one thing we will find is that the US has a great deal of unoccupied/unutilized land in areas which are now much more viable thanks to better technology. Population dynamics and statistics teach us that evenutally the land will be filled; but with smart planning and population management we can do so in an orderly fashion rather than a disorderly one.

Cycloptichorn

Brown
I am sure with the Democrats in control of congress and Bush who is on the side of amnesty you will get your wish. I also predict that we will be faced with the same dilemma over and over again because of that decision. Come on up and if you can successfully evade detection citizenship will be yours in time. That is the message being sent.

It's up to our government to control illegal immigration. Arguing points of crime concerning illegal immigration is useless until our government 1) controls our borders, and 2) enforce legislation they write on illegal immigration. We all have our opinions about what should be done about the illegal immigrants already in our country, but it's fruitless until our government acts on it. We can hope that the democratic congress will do something, but there's no guarantee.

Yes. Some felonies are worse then other felonies. But the condition you set for amnesty was "guilty of no felonies" -- not "guilty of no felonies except the ones I'm okay with."


I didn't really have any intention of doing either. You're the one who made a technical semantic point. That point was false, so I corrected it.

There are enough good points to make for open immigration, and I've been arguing many of them since the beginning of this thread. There is no need to burden your argument with bad points, such as the assertion that illegal entry is not a federal felony.