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What should be done about illegal immigration?

 
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 03:19 pm
Democratic victory may pave the way for Bush's immigration plan
By Dave Montgomery

McClatchy Newspapers

(MCT)

WASHINGTON - If President Bush can find a silver lining in the Democratic takeover in Congress, it could be this: The outlook for enacting his sweeping immigration plan, which House Republicans blocked for two years, suddenly looks brighter.

A 700-mile border fence pushed through the Republican Congress also could come under renewed scrutiny. Although Bush signed the fence legislation into law, Democratic leaders opposed the measure and may hold up funds for the project, which is expected to cost at least $2.2 billion.

"I can't think of another issue that could bring together the Democratic Congress and the president like immigration," said Frank Sharry, executive director of the National Immigration Forum, which supports the president's initiatives. "This election has really changed the immigration debate forever."

Pro-immigration groups such as Sharry's predict that the next session of Congress will be far more receptive to the most volatile elements of Bush's immigration plan: a temporary guest-worker program and conditional legalization for millions of undocumented immigrants now in the country.
http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/news/politics/15983342.htm
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 03:24 pm
blueflame, That sounds good to this citizen. I really do hope, they deep six the 700-mile fence; a waste of good money.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 03:34 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Quote:
The number involving illegal immigrant parents is unknown but is likely to be in the tens of thousands, health experts said.
[...]
S. Kimberly Belshé, secretary of the California Health and Human Services Agency, said: ''By virtue of being born in the United States, a child is a U.S. citizen. What more proof does the federal government need?''


It is "likely" that the number of babies involving illegal immigrants is in the tens of thousands, the New York Times article saysm but the number is unknown.

Not "at least tens of thousands" as Foxfyre untruely claims.


Walter with anywhere from 11 to 20 million illegals in tthe US it is not unreasonabe to believe the number of babies to be in the tens of thousands


Is it true that children born to non citizens in Germany whether legal or not are not German citizens. In addition are those born to illegals receiving the same services as Citizens?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 03:45 pm
au1929 wrote:

Is it true that children born to non citizens in Germany whether legal or not are not German citizens. In addition are those born to illegals receiving the same services as Citizens?


To be a German citizen has nothing to do with where you are born: we have the ius sanguines.

We have about estimated 500,000 illegals in Germany.
If they get a baby here, I doubt they'll do it in a hospital or in any other public place. However, that would be covered by by our social securty system ... and they would be ... deported, I suppose. (No idea, since I'm not aware that such happened resp. how it is/was handled).
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 03:55 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
au1929 wrote:

Is it true that children born to non citizens in Germany whether legal or not are not German citizens. In addition are those born to illegals receiving the same services as Citizens?


To be a German citizen has nothing to do with where you are born: we have the ius sanguines. Please explain

We have about estimated 500,000 illegals in Germany.
If they get a baby here, I doubt they'll do it in a hospital or in any other public place. However, that would be covered by by our social securty system ... and they would be ... deported, I suppose. (No idea, since I'm not aware that such happened resp. how it is/was handled).


Obviously you do not have the problem that the US does since the children are not citizens. You just deport it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 04:02 pm
au1929 wrote:

Obviously you do not have the problem that the US does since the children are not citizens. You just deport it.


Well not "just". They -usually- ask for asylum before, go through the courts and then are deported.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 04:10 pm
deportation from canada is a pretty rare occurence so far .
estimates are that there are about 200,000 to 500,000 illegal immigrants in canada . many of those come from central and south-america and are employed in the construction industry .
both the construction industry and the unions are lobbying the government to let these workers stay in canada under a special permit .
the construction industry claims that construction in canada would slow down considerably if all those workers were deported .
the various governments seem to be in no hurry to decide one way or the other - it's been this way under both conservative and liberal governments for some years .
every now and then , a particular case will be reported on the news , but generally speaking the governments show little interest in hunting down all illegals .
in cases where a deportation order is issued there is usually a lenghty appeal process .
hbg

...DEPORTATION FROM CANADA...

from the linked article :
"Deportation. Canada's Supreme Court ruled on January 11, 2002 that foreigners "generally" cannot be deported to their homelands unless their presence poses an exceptional threat to Canadian national security. However, foreigners can be deported even if they fear they might be mistreated or tortured, as long as they are given a fair chance to argue their case and are deemed to pose a serious threat to national security.

The court said it was balancing "the state's genuine interest in combating terrorism, preventing Canada from becoming a safe haven for terrorists, and protecting public security […with] Canada's constitutional commitment to liberty and fair process." The Court continued: the balance "will rarely be struck in favor of expulsion where there is a serious risk of torture."

The Canadian high court was considering the appeals of a Sri Lankan and an Iranian who were fighting attempts to deport them to their home countries for alleged terrorist activities in Canada. The decision allows the deportation of the Iranian, but permits the Sri Lankan to remain in Canada until he receives written reasons for his designation as a national security risk, has an opportunity to refute the accusations, and then has a chance to argue that he would face persecution if returned to Sri Lanka. "
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 04:53 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
au1929 wrote:

Obviously you do not have the problem that the US does since the children are not citizens. You just deport it.


Well not "just". They -usually- ask for asylum before, go through the courts and then are deported.


And how does that work for you all Walter. From what I hear, this means there are numbers of immigrants who have been in country for generations yet have not been able to assimilate. I also hear this causes problems with your violent right wing.

I am proud of the fact that waves of immigrants to the US both legal and illegal, including the latest wave, have always successfully assimilated by the second generation.

Because of the 14th Amendment we have a strong diverse society with far less ethnic tension than many European societies that don't give citizenship to the children of immigrants.

I also heard (and correct me Walter if I am wrong) that Germany is short on legal workers-- they want people to set up temporarily in Germany and then leave when they aren't needed any more. I wonder how this is going.

The USA tradition, which includes citizenship for all children born here is a big success at assimilating immigrant communities while nourishing the strong culture of diversity and minimizing the amount of ethnic tension.

The USA is right.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 05:06 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
And how does that work for you all Walter. From what I hear, this means there are numbers of immigrants who have been in country for generations yet have not been able to assimilate. I also hear this causes problems with your violent right wing.


Well, like in the USA or elswhere it takes some time until you really assimilate - comparing the Polish immigrants I saw (and what I learnt about them) in Chicago and those here (the immigration took place around the same time period), I think, it worked here as well as there. Only, difference: you don't find "Polish heritage" here anymore among this group.

Those, who came here in the 60's//0's as "gastarbeiter" are either back in their homecountries or indeed "full Germans" by now.

Different it is with the Germans from the former USSR - and here especially with the younger generation.

The Turkish 'gastarbeiter' - well, that seems to differ, too: some became Germans, others didn't want to.

ebrown_p wrote:
I also heard (and correct me Walter if I am wrong) that Germany is short on legal workers-- they want people to set up temporarily in Germany and then leave when they aren't needed any more. I wonder how this is going.


No, not all. They tried something like a temporary green-card for IT-specialists, but that didn't really work.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 05:23 pm
I am proud of the US and I hate to think of what would have happened in our diverse society if children were denied citizenship.

We have had large immigrant populations of Irish, Italians, Poles, Chinese, Greeks and Jews who came here illegally over the years. Their descendents are now fully assimilated and many of them probably don't even know that their grandparents were undocumented.

As we are a nation of immigrants (both legal and illegal) they intermarried and became both parts of their communities-- we have Italian festivals and Chinese festivals and Irish parades here in Boston as well as full proud Americans contributing to our national culture.

And the best thing is no one cares whether an American was descended from an undocumented immigrant. Imagine an American born and bred in the States who finds out since he can't find papers for his immigrant grandparents can no longer live in his country.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 05:23 pm
I am proud of the US and I hate to think of what would have happened in our diverse society if children were denied citizenship.

We have had large immigrant populations of Irish, Italians, Poles, Chinese, Greeks and Jews who came here illegally over the years. Their descendents are now fully assimilated and many of them probably don't even know that their grandparents were undocumented.

As we are a nation of immigrants (both legal and illegal) they intermarried and became both parts of their communities-- we have Italian festivals and Chinese festivals and Irish parades here in Boston as well as full proud Americans contributing to our national culture.

And the best thing is no one cares whether an American was descended from an undocumented immigrant. Imagine an American born and bred in the States who finds out since he can't find papers for his immigrant grandparents can no longer live in his country.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 05:29 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
I am proud of the US and I hate to think of what would have happened in our diverse society if children were denied citizenship.


Well, I suppose, the main difference is indeed the different law of citizenship: ius soli and ius sanguines. (The USA has a mixture of both.)
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 06:23 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
ebrown_p wrote:
I am proud of the US and I hate to think of what would have happened in our diverse society if children were denied citizenship.


Well, I suppose, the main difference is indeed the different law of citizenship: ius soli and ius sanguines. (The USA has a mixture of both.)


Walter, what are the laws in general in most EU nations. regarding this subject. Are they similar to those in Germany?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 06:47 pm
It's my understanding that any member of an EU country can work in any country they choose, but they do not by fiat become citizens.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 01:59 am
au1929 wrote:

Walter, what are the laws in general in most EU nations. regarding this subject. Are they similar to those in Germany?


No idea really - ius soli and ius sangiunis is are common in various levels in the 25 countries. (And it would me as long as it would take you to find out the various national citizenship laws :wink: )

As an EU-citizen, what c.i. said, we can work/live/settle in any EU-country, with some restrictions re the citizens of the newest EU-member states.

Bewteen the Schengen countries, there's no border controll at all.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 10:43 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:
au1929 wrote:

Walter, what are the laws in general in most EU nations. regarding this subject. Are they similar to those in Germany?


No idea really - ius soli and ius sangiunis is are common in various levels in the 25 countries. (And it would me as long as it would take you to find out the various national citizenship laws :wink: )

As an EU-citizen, what c.i. said, we can work/live/settle in any EU-country, with some restrictions re the citizens of the newest EU-member states.

Bewteen the Schengen countries, there's no border controll at all.


It is not much different than the USA then except that the various states within the USA consider themselves to be part of one sovereign nation. EU countries all consider themselves part of the EU but each consider themselves to be a sovereign nation. U.S. citizens can freely move, live, and work among the various states but all must adhere to the U.S. Constitution respective to who is an American citizen.

Presumably E.U. countries can each decide who will be a citizen in their own country which might have different laws than other EU countries.

I wonder if any E.U. country affords automatic citizenship to people who are born within its borders? (And yes, I'm too lazy to look it up too.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 11:00 am
EU-countries are all sovereign countries, with own constitutions, laws, parliaments, territoty etc - all what makes a country a sovereign country.

Germany e.g. has states like the USA, which are not sovereign, but have a prime minster, parliaments, laws ...

From wikipedia:
Quote:
Specific national legislation
Jus soli is common in countries in the Americas that wanted to develop and increase their own citizenry. It is still applicable in a few nations outside the Americas as well. Some countries that observe jus soli:

Argentina
Brazil
Canada (There are some limitations concerning the children of foreign diplomats)
Colombia
Jamaica
Mexico
Pakistan
United States (There are some limitations concerning the children of foreign diplomats. See Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution)
Uruguay

Modification of Jus soli
In a number of countries, the automatic application of jus soli has been modified to impose some additional requirements for children of foreign parents, such as the parent being a permanent resident or having lived in the country for a period of time. Jus soli has been modified in the following countries:

United Kingdom on 1 January 1983
Australia on 20 August 1986
Republic of Ireland on 1 January 2005
New Zealand on 1 January 2006
France also operates a modified form of jus soli
German nationality law was changed on 1 January 2000 to introduce a modified concept of Jus soli. Prior to that date, German nationality law was based entirely on Jus sanguinis
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 12:50 pm
Walter writes
Quote:
EU-countries are all sovereign countries, with own constitutions, laws, parliaments, territoty etc - all what makes a country a sovereign country.

Germany e.g. has states like the USA, which are not sovereign, but have a prime minster, parliaments, laws ...


Not that it changes the principles being discussed here, but within each U.S. state there are numerous counties, each subject to certain state laws but otherwise having its own laws. Within each county the various villages, towns, and cities are subject to certain county laws and state laws but otherwise each having its own laws, regulations, policies. All are subject to U.S. national law including who is a citizen.

I would guess however, that Germany doesn't allow its states to adopt a different immigration policy or citizenship policy that is different from the national policy. And I would guess Germany would strongly resist any effort by France or the UK or anybody else telling them what their immigration and/or citizenship policies must be.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 01:01 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

Not that it changes the principles being discussed here, but within each U.S. state there are numerous counties, each subject to certain state laws but otherwise having its own laws. Within each county the various villages, towns, and cities are subject to certain county laws and state laws but otherwise each having its own laws, regulations, policies. All are subject to U.S. national law including who is a citizen.


I didn't expect anything else - it's of course the very same here.

Foxfyre wrote:
I would guess however, that Germany doesn't allow its states to adopt a different immigration policy or citizenship policy that is different from the national policy. And I would guess Germany would strongly resist any effort by France or the UK or anybody else telling them what their immigration and/or citizenship policies must be.


Correct.

Sorry that my previous posts lead to wrong conclusions.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 02:10 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:

Not that it changes the principles being discussed here, but within each U.S. state there are numerous counties, each subject to certain state laws but otherwise having its own laws. Within each county the various villages, towns, and cities are subject to certain county laws and state laws but otherwise each having its own laws, regulations, policies. All are subject to U.S. national law including who is a citizen.


I didn't expect anything else - it's of course the very same here.

Foxfyre wrote:
I would guess however, that Germany doesn't allow its states to adopt a different immigration policy or citizenship policy that is different from the national policy. And I would guess Germany would strongly resist any effort by France or the UK or anybody else telling them what their immigration and/or citizenship policies must be.


Correct.

Sorry that my previous posts lead to wrong conclusions.


No, I didn't mean to suggest you meant anything else. I, like you, was just stating the situation that exists as I see it.
0 Replies
 
 

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