Are Conservative Values Inconsistent With Being a Christian?

well at the risk of being dissed again, i must offer that there is no such critter as "conservative" or "christian" values. Ranging from the 3 Catholic nuns sitting in prison here in Colorado for trespass at a missle silo, Penitente's still offering human crucifictions on Easter, Quakers resolute that all war is evil, Amish that regard electicity as sin, Southern Baptists that are still waging the Civil War, Mormons practicing polygamy with child brides, snake handlers in Alabama, the Pope in the Vatican praying agaist Bush's war in Iraq, Methodists as CEO's of fradulent corportations--the list goes on.
as far as "conservative" values, again the range is from manipulation of public services for profit, interference in the private lives of citizens, minimizing potentials of minorites, religious intolerance, xenophobia and wanton disregrard for the environment--the list goes on.
What is interesting is that i could make an equivalent list for liberals but polarization of personalities limits reasonable discourse. the us vs them mentality excludes rationality.

There ya go. What dys said.

Could we go with the sermon on the mount as summarising christian values - or at least, as Frank and Sofia began to do, discussion of the actual words and actions of Jesus? The reality of the enormous portmanteau of values embraced by the current churches and used as props, often quite wrongly, by various interest groups, render the field undiscussable, I think, unless we have a clear definition.

Discussing the issue in terms of the health care question originally raised by Frank would seem a way to focus discussion very clearly, it seems to me.

Could someone point me to the initiating thread?

OK here's my take in a nutshell:

Jesus seemed to speak for the PEOPLE against the POWERFUL.

Conservativism seems to involve putting the POWERFUL before the PEOPLE.

I'll expoud later, but's let's just say I see someone like the Berrigans or Mary Prejan as more "Christ-like" that Robertson or any other fundamentalist.

i want to watch the debate of which translation to use.

:wink:

That is because you are, unquestionably, a very evil little deeruahauha indeed! LOL!

Good point, I tremble to admit.

i'm betting on the Vulgate, but this is probably a King James crowd

The thing about conservatives wanting people to learn how to fish is very interesting. I didn't know that the conservatives had a monopoly on knowing what policies teach people to fish as opposed to giving them fish.

The old anecdote about teaching versus giving is often posited by people who don't want to give up their fish.

It can easily be argued that many conservative policies are not helpful in teaching people to fish as well. But I'll avoid policy. I'm not going to play salesman to a set of policy here.

I will note that the Bible speaks more about giving fish that teaching to fish. It mentions teaching people to be fishermen of men, but it also mentions giving fish much more.

The little boy gave Jesus his loaves and fishes and Jesus turned around and made a bunch for everyone. He did not try to avoid being over-generous ad decide that the throng was better off learning his miracle or learning to fish.

I'd like to see where in the Bible it says you shouldn't give fish and should teach people to fish. I can provide many many verses in which giving fish is what Jesus did and many in which giving is advocated.

Correct me if I'm wrong-- I'm pretty sure someone will...
But, I think we can all agree that Christian denotes 'of or pertaining to Christ.' Christ is accepted in the Christian religion as Jesus. Therefore, Frank and I had agreed that Jesus' quotes would be our source for Christian principles.

This discussion doesn't seek to put Christianity above any other religion-- it is just following the phraseology of the thread title.

Mkay?

Craven-- You said--The thing about conservatives wanting people to learn how to fish is very interesting. I didn't know that the conservatives had a monopoly on knowing what policies teach people to fish as opposed to giving them fish.
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I didn't see where anyone said conservatives have a monopoly on anything. I am interested in starting to examine policies and ideologies, with references to Jesus' quotes. I am not sure what we will find, but I was interested in the journey.

You said--I'd like to see where in the Bible it says you shouldn't give fish and should teach people to fish. I can provide many many verses in which giving fish is what Jesus did and many in which giving is advocated.
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Straw man? Acting as though someone said something they didn't, and then making that the focus of the debate?

Dear Well Intended Lost Soul:
Jesus told us that the poor will always be with us. But this simple statement of a thoroughly annoying fact should not be construed as a direction to actually acknowledge them when they wander into your field of vision. I am reminded of the last time this passage from Matthew was quoted to me. It was by dear Juanita after she informed me that she was resigning from Golden Door Spa. As she carefully scraped the deep-cleansing Italian mud off my troublesome t-zone area, she said: "For you have the pores always with you; but me you will have not always." Her words moved me to tears.

Yes, it was lovely of Jesus to make a fuss over the riff-raff. It is for precisely such quaint notions that I adore Him so! Jesus, going way overboard in trying to be an affable Savior (in contradistinction to the vain and spiteful God depicted in the Old Testament, whom the Jews so inexplicably still cling to), did say a few passing words about trying to do something nice for the impoverished. Certainly, a lovely box of chocolates on occasion is always appreciated and never remiss. Oversize balloons that say things, however, are simply annoying surrogates for people too selfish to spend time thinking of a truly thoughtful gifts and only provide people with helium with which to make annoying sounds. They are to be avoided - even when presented to street people without the social acumen to know how truly annoying such a gift is.

Anyway, I would be more than happy to instruct you on how to deal in a somewhat Christ-like manner with people you would never invite to your home. While I can't actually think of a specific time I helped a poor person (other than the Jenkins down the street, who all drive domestic vehicles), I'm quite certain that I would do something for those dreadful people should the appropriate occasion arise. Given the right set of circumstances, I certainly would try to exemplify the loving generosity to the shiftless, filthy poor that our Blessed Savior suggested we might wish to try on occasion. Nevertheless, I have never met a destitute person with the morality and purity of soul worthy of my time, much less pecuniary dispensation. I am sure that, one day, I shall meet someone who pesters me on the street who can do an absolutely rip-roaring rendition of some foreign hobo from Les Miserables, and I will be so thoroughly enchanted and entertained that I will be selflessly moved to have one of my people give him some loose change.

But let's not go too far! As I have stated, Jesus was quick to remind us "For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always." In other words, don't slight Jesus while he is around for some poorly dressed stranger with a preposterous story about why he needs $5 for gasoline. For any saved Christian, Jesus is indeed *always* with us, so Jesus' direction to pay attention to Him and ignore the poor is still in effect for the saved - a convenience for which I am rather grateful. As always, Jesus is so good to us!

So Close To Jesus, I'm # 3 On His Speed-Dial

Betty Bower's Nearer to God Than Thee

If you are asking me if I think it was a straw man I don't. You said that conservatives want to teach people to fish while liberals want to give people fish.

I disagree with that and mention that people differ on what will effectively teach people to fish.

I expounded further to say that this discussion about whether Conservative values are inconsistent with being a Christian by pointing out that Christ routinely gave fish.

Nowhere did nI say that someone (give it up, you are talking about yourself again) said otherwise. I am not making you the focus of debate, you flatter yourself. I am asking that the notion that it is Christian to deny someone fish while preferrig to teach them to fish be explorered.

Again, you define Conservative values as preferring to teach someone to fish instead of giving fish right? I know that many share that notion. I ask you to look at the title of the topic and say whether that is or is not consistent with being a Christian and we can discuss it from there if you wish.

I ahve no desire to make your arguments the focus of the debate, personally I think most of them were off topic sales pitches that can be contested elsewhere.

Family.org : Gambling and the Bible

Call me crazy, but aren't 'labels' and 'isms' a tad outdated these days? Does any of this really matter? I think most people follow their hearts, and whatever they might call it, bless 'em. The human race is indeed a collective consciousness, and let's accept that already. Nothing is incompatible, all is mutable, if you let it be so.

catholiceducation.org : The Book on gambling

I break it down to the mean spirited and those having compassion. Most people who use the tale about teaching someone to fish never teach anyone how to fish at all.

Most who advocate fishing lessons have had the smoked salmon served to them on fine china for a few generations.

No, Craven, I didn't say you were making me the object of your comments, I said you attributed a statement to me I didn't make.

Weird that you say I'm trying to sell something. I don't know where this discussion might have led. I was open to the results.

I was explaining to ehBeth the down- to- the- bone, widely accepted difference in the Dem and GOP approach to social programs. It was not meant as a point in the debate. Frank and I were trying to agree on the parameters of the debate, so I would know how to proceed. We hadn't done that yet.

As it is, the thing has gotten very unweildy already, before I've even found out what Conservative values are, as relates to the discussion. I like to have an idea of the topic before starting.

I'll wait for Frank or max or someone to set these out before saying anything else.

I break it down to the mean spirited and those having compassion
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edgar--
Do you really think huge groups of people can be so easily defined? There are shades of gray in everything and everyone.

The people who vote for the mean spirited may have shades of gray, but their politicians do not.

I did not attribute a statement to you except the one about the fish. The rest yo inferred on your own.

I also did not say you were selling anything, I said I wasn't going to play salesperson.

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Questiosn to those who do wish to address the issue:

Is it "Christian" to have policy to the effect that people need to learn to fish and should not be given fish?