WHY ISLAM IS BECOMING THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION..Serious

Rex,

I would not say the universe was "built" at all !

Rex,

Read Prigogine and "chaos theory"....poof there it is !

....more significantly for you, read Polkinghorne (the Cambridge physicist turned theologian) who takes Prigogine on board.

For once, RR got one part right--"Poof, there it is" certainly accurately characterizes the theist agrument for creation.

The universe is complexity "built" upon complexity. To assume there is no "builder" is rather like, poof there it is. Some science requires more faith than religion...

RexRed wrote:

The universe is complexity "built" upon complexity. To assume there is no "builder" is rather like, poof there it is. Some science requires more faith than religion...

Its certainly complex, but that is absolutely no justification for assuming it was put together by an outside body. To take the assumption "no builder" as proof that there is a builder, is not so much the no builder but the no brainer theorem if you ask me. Finally I would like to know which bits of science requires more faith than religion.

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

RexRed wrote:

The universe is complexity "built" upon complexity. To assume there is no "builder" is rather like, poof there it is. Some science requires more faith than religion...

Its certainly complex, but that is absolutely no justification for assuming it was put together by an outside body. To take the assumption "no builder" as proof that there is a builder, is not so much the no builder but the no brainer theorem if you ask me. Finally I would like to know which bits of science requires more faith than religion.

Scientists take the word of science without seeing there is certainly much more wisdom in the philosophy of Genesis and the Bible...

scientists dont take the word of anyone, they want proof

The big bang "theory" requires much more faith to believe than Genesis..

much more knowledge and brain power yes, and much less faith certainly

The big bang proposes that a nearly unlimited amount of hydrogen came out of a giant explosion from nothing! This created our universe. Now all of sciences models point to this belief because of observed red shift and "noise" they supposedly hear from this big bang. Pictures of old things that happened near the beginning.

Well that is all fine and good but science leads us to this uncertainty that there is nothing that can travel faster than light (although science observes phenomenon that they cannot explain). Science takes that view that because they cannot draw up some sort of equation that makes all of their other guesses work then they are sticking to their guns..

Well these guns include cutting God or a supreme consciousness out of the equation.

Scientist let simplistic theories and equations guide their ultimate ideas rather than common sense.

to you string theory is obviously as simplistic as it sounds
A vast majority of the earth believes in God but oh not the scientist. They believe in math and theories. Scientists rarely ever stop to consider the words that have survived thousands of years in the hands of "holy" men who also studied the stars (for thousands of years not 400).

God is part of the creation because God gives of what he is. But God is outside of creation because God created creation. Creation is only an image of God's reality.

semantics trying to avoid the logical question who created the creator

We see particles darting all over the universe much faster than light can travel but scientists won't break with tradition. So we get this big bang theory that first science didn't know where the big bang came from so we were just to believe in this big bang and STOP there, like being given an order. Then they started this "theory" that the big bang and the universe came from "strings" but science still can't answer where these theoretical strings came from. Now we are to stop here for a while... So strings that came from nothing? Seriously this is really grasping at straws.

stuff comes from nothing all the time, you are just unfamiliar with the concept

So I am to follow science into this black hole logic rather than accept something that science may never be able to ever see? God...

Science even believes in things they cannot see like black holes and quarks. They glorify their own knowledge but they dumb down the universe.

this is quite the reverse of the truth. If anything approaches a sense of the divine for me, it is the ineffable grandure of the Universe that science has shown us, as well as our insignificance in the great scheme of things. The idea that God knocked it all together in a few days, set the clock ticking and walked away...thats dumbing down

The only reason why I think science is so inclined to make the universe lifeless and soul less is so they can continue to stick their needles into space looking for anything to satiate their thirst without conSCIENCE. its called a thirst for knowledge...something that religious people are clearly frightened of, preferring to remain in a state of superstitious ignorance

RexRed wrote:

Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

RexRed wrote:

The universe is complexity "built" upon complexity. To assume there is no "builder" is rather like, poof there it is. Some science requires more faith than religion...

Its certainly complex, but that is absolutely no justification for assuming it was put together by an outside body. To take the assumption "no builder" as proof that there is a builder, is not so much the no builder but the no brainer theorem if you ask me. Finally I would like to know which bits of science requires more faith than religion.

Scientists take the word of science without seeing there is certainly much more wisdom in the philosophy of Genesis and the Bible...

scientists dont take the word of anyone, they want proof

The proof is evidenced in what we see but science closes it's eyes and mind to it. They wouldn't believe God if he appeared in a cloud. They would seek a shrink or some herbal remedy.

The big bang "theory" requires much more faith to believe than Genesis..

much more knowledge and brain power yes, and much less faith certainly

So you think it takes more brain power to understand the creation or the creator?

The big bang proposes that a nearly unlimited amount of hydrogen came out of a giant explosion from nothing! This created our universe. Now all of sciences models point to this belief because of observed red shift and "noise" they supposedly hear from this big bang. Pictures of old things that happened near the beginning.

Well that is all fine and good but science leads us to this uncertainty that there is nothing that can travel faster than light (although science observes phenomenon that they cannot explain). Science takes that view that because they cannot draw up some sort of equation that makes all of their other guesses work then they are sticking to their guns..

Well these guns include cutting God or a supreme consciousness out of the equation.

Scientist let simplistic theories and equations guide their ultimate ideas rather than common sense.

to you string theory is obviously as simplistic as it sounds
A vast majority of the earth believes in God but oh not the scientist. They believe in math and theories. Scientists rarely ever stop to consider the words that have survived thousands of years in the hands of "holy" men who also studied the stars (for thousands of years not 400).

God is part of the creation because God gives of what he is. But God is outside of creation because God created creation. Creation is only an image of God's reality.

semantics trying to avoid the logical question who created the creator

God is a concept and as a concept God has no beginning. If anything were to exist and understand this concept they would understand God... Concepts are eternal. They transcend any beginning or end...

We see particles darting all over the universe much faster than light can travel but scientists won't break with tradition. So we get this big bang theory that first science didn't know where the big bang came from so we were just to believe in this big bang and STOP there, like being given an order. Then they started this "theory" that the big bang and the universe came from "strings" but science still can't answer where these theoretical strings came from. Now we are to stop here for a while... So strings that came from nothing? Seriously this is really grasping at straws.

stuff comes from nothing all the time, you are just unfamiliar with the concept

Nothing comes from nothing... Everything has a purpose.

So I am to follow science into this black hole logic rather than accept something that science may never be able to ever see? God...

Science even believes in things they cannot see like black holes and quarks. They glorify their own knowledge but they dumb down the universe.

this is quite the reverse of the truth. If anything approaches a sense of the divine for me, it is the ineffable grandure of the Universe that science has shown us, as well as our insignificance in the great scheme of things. The idea that God knocked it all together in a few days, set the clock ticking and walked away...thats dumbing down

Science only observes what is already there. Theists have tried to fit creation into seven days but I do not think that is what Genesis is really saying about creation. So theists do not understand their own Bible... The seven day period had to do with consciousness and not necessarily the development of the earth or the body.

The terminology of Genesis allows for evolution. "Let the earth bring forth life". That is not "poof there it is".

Not that a day equals a thousand or million but that evolution happened before Eden... Most people do not even consider this is what the Bible is really saying... The seven days had only to do with NEW intelligence that (image of God) was finally achieved in a carbon based life form.

The only reason why I think science is so inclined to make the universe lifeless and soul less is so they can continue to stick their needles into space looking for anything to satiate their thirst without conSCIENCE. its called a thirst for knowledge...something that religious people are clearly frightened of, preferring to remain in a state of superstitious ignorance

RexRed,

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/vic_stenger/polkrev.html

The proof is evidenced in what we see but science closes it's eyes and mind to it.

So you think it takes more brain power to understand the creation or the creator?

God is a concept..

Nothing comes from nothing...

Theists have tried to fit creation into seven days but I do not think that is what Genesis is really saying about creation. So theists do not understand their own Bible... The seven day period had to do with consciousness and not necessarily the development of the earth or the body.

A thirst for knowledge should not come at the cost of a personal God over our own ego.

Romans 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature [creation] more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Quote:

The proof is evidenced in what we see but science closes it's eyes and mind to it.

Reversal of the truth. Science seeks light reason and understanding. Religion seeks to impose dark, dogma and fear of death.

If one is to go on the assumption that there are much greater things to learn from the creator than the creation then, that that would put you at possibly a great disadvantage. Your questions about God are on a seemingly simplistic level as it is (this is not intended as an insult). But you have not done your homework. You know how to possibly split an atom but you do not know how to divide good and evil... You take the standard and blame it for the evil as a juvenile. Even chaos has an order to it. Chaos is just another shape in the landscape of terraforming creation.

One can spend their life thinking about dirt, chemicals, elements heat, magnetism, gravity, suns, black holes, or one could spend months even years trying to understand one word... like, "mercy"... Do you have the dictionary meaning of mercy memorized like you have "a straight line is 180 degrees" memorized?

Do you even know an actual real definition of what "mercy" is? Well I have known the actual definition of mercy for over 20 years... It means "withheld judgment"... Do you know what the word "grace" means? People think that grace is only a description for the way some people walk.

Well grace has a specific meaning like mercy. Grace means "divine favor"... that means you are favored even though you don't deserve it... Or you are favored not because of your works but because of the perfect works of God in you...

This is what the theists spends their time thinking about... things like grace and mercy while the scientist studies rocks... I do not advocate us not studying rocks but only when they are put in proper perspective...

(This is the perspective)

God is the "basis" of all life and rocks (etc...) are only a single a "base" of study in life of which God is still the basis (even of rocks). God is the basis of all bases of study and research. That is what that scripture is saying.

The theist also studies how science fits in the proper proportion to faith as in the basis and base ideas... Where science only see's one side... (Usually the universities/corporations finance departments.)

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So you think it takes more brain power to understand the creation or the creator?

If one pre supposes there is no creator then clearly it takes no effort at all to understand the creator. In fact even if one does believe, the concept of the big guy in the sky is pretty simple to understand. Whereas everything we have learned through the scientific method and the application of rational thought, is indeed quite difficult for the average person to understand.

Yes many scientists do "presuppose" which only reveals bias... I do not deny that the universe is not real and I do not deny God either. As a theist I realize that there are things that cannot be put in a test tube like "grace and mercy" and analyzed. They need to be analyzed by a spiritual apparatus. I have advocate the added spiritual experience to augment the physical where it is the science community that has a sorely limited scope.

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God is a concept..

Now this is interesting. God is a concept. Conceived by whom? an idea born of man. Of course this is the truth. Man created god in his own image.

God is a concept perceived by anyone in whom God gives the spirit whereby a being is able to consciously awaken and perceive him. If God was in our image, we would not need God to know God's image. Yet we must receive "holy" spirit to differentiate our own image (and that of the world/science) from that of God's image.

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Nothing comes from nothing...

particle and anti-particle? Where did they come from? Down there among the sub atomic particles and up there among the quasars and black holes its a strange world. But as the ancient hermetic maxim goes "as above, so below".

God is both in the physical and the quantum that is how they are linked...

Because science ignores the realm of God they will never seen how both realms coexist...

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Theists have tried to fit creation into seven days but I do not think that is what Genesis is really saying about creation. So theists do not understand their own Bible... The seven day period had to do with consciousness and not necessarily the development of the earth or the body.

Sorry Red but you give the impression, typical actually of many religious people, that you just make up this stuff as you go along, day by day, hour by hour.

Actually I just take much of what I believe from the reasonings in the scriptures (lost to much of our generation) that have lasted for thousands of years... not days...

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A thirst for knowledge should not come at the cost of a personal God over our own ego.

I acknowledge that humility is an admirable quality. But what's arrogant or ignoble about saying I don't know? Its the religious who are arrogant and superior in their own puffed up sense of understanding that which cannot be understood.

You are right but humility is only the tip of the iceberg. Is it not foolish to plead ignorance when the answers are clearly available to know? Spiritual wisdom and knowledge of self and spirit has been known by mystics since ancient times. It is a duty to the human self to have a healthy understanding of the matters of the soul and spirit. (Do you even know the difference between soul and spirit?) Soul is the life force passed on from generations of all creatures and spirit is the gift of God.

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Romans 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature [creation] more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I dont understand this. Please clarify.

Twadddle. Religious faith is indeferentiable from superstiton; regardless the sophisic liptstick put on the pig of the religionist proposition, the pig remains the pig it is.