Sheep - a poem in one sentence

Spendius - I've studied the picture. I must be missing something. Anyway - that's not my village - that's a neighboring village. I live in a larger village nearby.

It doesn't make me nervous for you to know what area of England I live in. If you remember correctly, at one time Rod, Clary, you and I were gonna all get together and meet. I'm not in communication with Rod or Clary anymore, but I think it would be fun for you and I and Mathos to meet sometime. I'm not particularly nervous about people I know knowing where I live. I'm just not into people who I don't know having that information. If you and I knew each other, hell, I'd invite you to my house for dinner. You know what I'm saying? I don't get the sense from you that you'd hurt me or be dangerous to me in any way.

I was just kidding about you and Mathos. I hope you don't feel that I (an American) have been hateful or insincerely flattering to you. I haven't. I try not to spread hate and I really never indulge in flattery that I don't mean. (Maybe that's part of my problem).

I can't give tips on photography. I just see what I see, point the camera and click the button.

Yeah, rainy and drizzly here too. Is this weather getting you down? I watched a funny movie the other night. It's called Saved. That'll give you a laugh- you should watch it. Lunch is over - back to class. Talk to you later.

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Typical Yorkie approach to everything you say or do Spendius, you can never see the wood for the trees, when you do catch a glimpse you eschew from the truth or facts, attempting to bluster your way around the hurdles like a dog with three legs.

The other readers are not awaiting my explanation on my reference to your daily twaddle, you rabbit on like an overjoyed child let loose on the fairground. I think I have told you before, a funambulist you will never be, know your place in the sawdust with the other clowns.

Common sense alone should tell you that renting opposed to buying in most cases is a losers game. You only rent items which are uneconomical to purchase eg scaffolding for exterior house painting. Motor vehicles if you run a business and need short term use of a particular vehicle. There are tax advantages in renting in this manner.

A classic example in the values of purchasing a home as regards to renting would be as follows;

My younger daughter and her husband purchased a large detached house some 10 years back. The price at the time, £150,000..00; they both earn a good salary and they purchased the same. The property is now valued at £400,000..00 and that is no exaggeration what so ever. Assuming their mortgage re-payments are in the region of £1000..00 per month they now have a classic property with very little mortgage on the same, and obviously they are doing well with the massive value increase.

Had they been renting this property at say an average over the period of ten years of £750..00 per month vis a vis;- they would have paid the landlord some £90,000..00 and owned nothing. As it is they have at least a £400,000..00 asset. I doubt stamp duty and solicitors fees would be too much of a burden on them if they sold the same and moved to Dubai, as they are thinking of doing.

Personally I rent out a considerable number of commercial properties and two residential properties. I am very glad to say that there are still people willing to pay rent.

You are banging your thick encrusted over-read skull on the doorstep Spendius. Get real Mister.

Aidan, as regards your comments regarding meeting me along with this pontifical psychopathic self opinionated uncultivated oick, there is more chance of hell freezing over.

Furthermore, why ?

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Mathos.

In 1968 Gold was $40 an ounce. Today it is $650.

Does that provide suitable evidence for buying gold today.

Anyway-you have entirely missed the point which was the marginality of the difference between renting and buying when proper intelligence is applied to the scrutiny of it. That there is a marginality is not an opinion of mine-it is a fact and an obvious fact to anybody who has not been dazzled by what has previously happened. aidan is not contemplating these alternative strategies when your family member did way back when.She is contemplating them now. Today. In a market nobody can predict with certainty.

But the marginality is the main point. There is not a lot to choose between the two options and many succesful firms rent, in some form,almost every item involved in their business down to the office furniture.

So try not to be so illiterate about financial matters when offering advice to others. You do not know what the housing market will do in the future and you ought not to pretend that you do.

Have you been reading the tea leaves or the crystal ball?

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Mathos wrote:

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Personally I rent out a considerable number of commercial properties and two residential properties. I am very glad to say that there are still people willing to pay rent
.

Sorry to return to the quote thing Mathos. But where are the two residential properties you rent out? Anywhere near me? Maybe I could rent one if the barn thing falls through.

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Aidan, as regards your comments regarding meeting me along with this pontifical psychopathic self opinionated uncultivated oick, there is more chance of hell freezing over.

Furthermore, why ?

Because, ever since the first time Spendius wrote/spoke to me, I've enjoyed his sense of humor. I also learn a lot from him, admire his intelligence and even find him kind of nice every now and then. As for you Mathos - you'd have to chaperone- because I still don't know how old Spendius is and I don't want to be accused of any funny business. It would also give me a chance to get my clippers on that hair and beard of yours. I'd give you a nice shape-up and trim and get you looking presentable. (It's been driving me crazy, you know.)

We could play spades or something (do you guys play spades over here?) My son or daughter could be the fourth hand - they're both pretty good-having been raised in a card playing family. Or we could watch that movie I told Spendi about - Saved. It's really funny- and typically American- although after Spendius' comment today, maybe you wouldn't think that's a good thing. Mandy Moore is really good as this fanatical Christian girl and Jena Malone (Donnie Darko), always a favorite of mine, is amazing in her role as well. Or we could walk down to the pub. It's right down the street.

I mean it. I've been thinking about it all afternoon. You guys should come down, over, or up - wherever it is you'd be coming from. Somerset people are lovely. Very friendly and welcoming. Everything is "My darlin' this and my darlin' that". I think you'd like it - and maybe you'd lose a little of that abrasive and mean "shite" that you both fall into so easily. Is that a Yorkie thing? Are either of you Yorkie's or both? I'm confused. But anyway, that would be my only rule. You'd have to leave your razor-sharp tongues at home that night. There would be no cutting each other or Rebecca/Aidan to ribbons that night.

But you have to let me know when you're coming so I can make sure I get to the shops so I can make you a nice dinner. Any allergies or things you don't eat? What do you like to drink? I just got this recipe for a lemon tart that is out of this world. Maybe I could make that. You just don't know - there's nothing I like better than to cook for and eat with friends.

But I know what you're going to say. Go ahead, say it. Hurt my feelings and decline my invitation. Just try really hard to be gentle about it, that's all I ask. I do want you to know however that you both are welcome in my home anytime. Let me know what you decide.

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Once the penny drops Spendius, you might, only just mind you, realise that bricks and mortar are a very sound investment indeed.

Perhaps you would care to tell us all;

Do you live in rented accommodation?

Or do you own your own home?

Are you living in a hostel?

Resident in a senior citizens home?

Living in a council house/flat?

You obviously have little or no idea whatsoever regarding sound economic sense unless it fits in with the windmill twaddle of your mind.
The high levels of private housing shortages in Britain today guarantee property prices will be on the increase for the foreseeable future. The choice of course belongs to Aidan, perhaps she now muses over the thousands of pounds she has already 'wasted' in rent, plus she has no doubt carried out improvements to the landlords property which have only benefited her living conditions, not her bank account. I could be tempted to call you a fool, however, you have already quite eloquently stamped this badge on your own backside.

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Sorry to disappoint you Aidan, my private and commercial properties are all in the north west of England. I also have the benefits of having long term tenants on good leases/tenancy agreements and would not foresee a vacant private property being available in the foreseeable future.

With regards to your comments regarding that oink, you must be viewing life through rose tinted spectacles. The Tyke is the only Yorkie amongst us, he could not be anything else. Exactly what you mean by abrasive and mean 'shite' I am lost for words here! However, it would not be practical for me as a Lancastrian to be in the company of a Yorkie, they are strange, weird, uncivilised, uncouth, most of them smell and they are known to be carriers of disease, warts and boils.

You mention the word allergy, well a Yorkie is an allergy to me and his company or presence would be the last consideration I could give a hint towards. Consequently I must decline your offer, perhaps the Oink will attend you under his own steam, (they will usually travel anywhere for a free meal) a word of advice though, ensure you are well chaperoned, they are not to be trusted, and watch the knives, forks and spoons or he will be slipping them into his pockets.

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north west of England

That's flat cap,tripe and onions,ee by gum, black pudding and pull mi nightie down when you've finished country with bent whippet racing and strippers on Friday nights.

Coronation Street is the rose-coloured spectacles bourgeois version.

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Aidan,

Don't it make your brown eyes blue.

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Mathos - My eyes aren't brown. They're hazel. When I wear green, they look green. When I wear gold, they look kind of goldish. My mother calls them amber.

Yes, though, your feud makes me if not exactly blue, at least somewhat impatient. You guys are still fighting the war of the roses. It reminds of how I feel whenever I drive through certain states in the southern part of my country and see confederate flags still proudly waving- as if these people are still fighting the civil war. I don't believe for a moment that any of what you accuse each other is true (except the whole black pudding thing- that might be true. Do you really eat that Mathos?)

Sorry to be so snappish the other day. You are always very polite and charming to me. That is true. My only excuse is that I'd been at school listening to arguing all afternoon by my young students. This world cup mania is making it hard to get any work done. But I'm learning all about Wayne Rooney's foot, etc., etc. I know they're excited- so I try to give them a break- but geez- after a while, enough is enough.

The flower show was incredible, even though it was quite a rainy day. I can't even begin to describe how beautiful some of the exhibits were. My favorite was all silvery and different shades of white. It featured silver birches with white foxgloves. It hit me how much I like white flowers. I saw white irises which is something I hadn't seen before. It's amazing how many different cultivars they're coming up with. There are rumors of a blue rose, though if it was there yesterday, I didn't see it. (There was so much to see, I'm sure I didn't even see half of it. It was pretty amazing). I don't know whether or not that- a blue rose- would appeal to me - as I tend to like the more natural, wild-looking flowers, and a blue rose would look distinctly cultivated and unnatural. But it might be interesting. I wonder if if the color of the petals would have anything to do with the level of acidity in the soil as it does with hydrangeas. Do you know?

Anyway, it inspired me to buy a place so I can plant my own garden. All of the asiatic lillies and antique rose varieties that just fill the air with scent are irresistable to me. Yeah, I need to have my own garden again.

Spendius - if you're not still angry with me - I was wondering if you could help me with something. I took this picture the last time I was in London.

http://users.domaindlx.com/scoot24/Lonodn.JPG

I think it's part of Parliament, but for some reason I have this memory of that I took it on a street looking back at Westminster Abbey. You know how parliament is in a big square and then Westminster Abbey kind of branches off and ends in another block at Westminster Cathedral. I seriously can't remember what this picture is of. Do you know?

At first I was just going to delete it. I really only wanted the moon and the building. But I was too lazy to cross the street (probably too much traffic) to get an uninterrupted view of it. But the more I looked at it, the more I like the juxtaposition of the old and the new, the natural with the manmade and the symbolism. I especially like the arrow pointing up in the corner, which could be symbolic for either the abbey or parliament, as well as the cctv camera, which at first I thought absolutely ruined the picture, but now I think adds kind of an ironic element, again whether it is the abbey or parliament- and in terms of composition, helps to divide the photo into almost equal fourths. Anyway, if you have an answer, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

And by the way- do you eat black pudding?

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aidan wrote-

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Anyway, it inspired me to buy a place so I can plant my own garden.

That is part of the general motive for holding the show in the first place. To inspire people to maintain the market prices of those items and ideas which the show organisers seek to profit from.

As I had said-personal circumstances are really all that matter because economic considerations are, by the very nature of markets,too close to call in the rent/buy decision.

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The flower show was incredible, even though it was quite a rainy day. I can't even begin to describe how beautiful some of the exhibits were.

This reminded me of one of my favourite paragraphs in Veblen's The Theory of the Leisure Class.

"By further habituation to an appreciative perception of the marks of expensiveness in goods, and by habitually identifying beauty with reputability, it comes about that a beautiful article which is not expensive is accounted not beautiful. In this way it has happened, for instance, that some beautiful flowers pass conventionally for offensive weeds; others that can be cultivated with relative ease are accepted and admired by the lower middle class, who can afford no more expensive luxuries of this kind; but these varieties are rejected as vulgar by those people who are better able to pay for expensive flowers and who are educated to a higher schedule of pecuniary beauty in the florist's products; while still other flowers, of no greater intrinsic beauty than these, are cultivated at great cost and call out much admiration from flower lovers whose tastes have been matured under the critical guidance of a polite environment."

Which is a very sweet way of saying that aesthetic tastes are conditioned by the admiration of the self. One might deduce from such juxtapositions that a face to face meeting between our goodselves would be fraught with much difficulty and not only on the subject of pretty flowers but on that whole range of goods which impute beauty to products which offer evidence of the expenditure of wasted effort such as-

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asiatic lillies and antique rose varieties

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The scent is no more than the odour of one's refinement.

I have seen these things referred to as a self satisfying religion of sorts. I have also seen it referred to as a madness but Mathos can probably explain that better than I can.

Wayne's foot injury, on the other hand, is a matter of grave national importance and your students are to be congratulated for giving it serious consideration ahead of more trivial matters.

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I seriously can't remember what this picture is of. Do you know?

Yes. It is of a pile of stones constructed to prevent the weather disrupting meetings of the powerful with large quantities of wasted effort in your face. The camera, and the other street furniture, being totally functional, are possibly the only truly beautiful items to be appreciated by a scientific temperment.

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And by the way- do you eat black pudding?

No. They are made from small chunks of waste fat about the size of Dolly-mixtures, and animal blood, usually pig's, with barley or oats and combinations of ginger,clove,pepper and other spices, according to local tastes, added to render the taste less disgusting that it would be without them. The concoction is boiled down to the consistency of putty, though not as claggy, in vats and about 4oz portions are enclosed in bags made of sheep's intestines and sold in most reputable butchers shops and most supermarkets. Most people feel in necessary to apply copious quantities of mustard when dining off them.

Basically they are made from the parts of animals that the better off refuse to eat short of starvation. They are very nutritious I'm told and I can well believe it.

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That is part of the general motive for holding the show in the first place. To inspire people to maintain the market prices of those items and ideas which the show organisers seek to profit from.

Obviously true. Excepting of course those people who have no intention of planting a garden and just enjoy viewing beautiful things. Like those who view art in a gallery without any intention at all to ever collect themselves.

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As I had said-personal circumstances are really all that matter because economic considerations are, by the very nature of markets,too close to call in the rent/buy decision.

I agree.

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This reminded me of one of my favourite paragraphs in Veblen's The Theory of the Leisure Class.

"By further habituation to an appreciative perception of the marks of expensiveness in goods, and by habitually identifying beauty with reputability, it comes about that a beautiful article which is not expensive is accounted not beautiful. In this way it has happened, for instance, that some beautiful flowers pass conventionally for offensive weeds; others that can be cultivated with relative ease are accepted and admired by the lower middle class, who can afford no more expensive luxuries of this kind; but these varieties are rejected as vulgar by those people who are better able to pay for expensive flowers and who are educated to a higher schedule of pecuniary beauty in the florist's products; while still other flowers, of no greater intrinsic beauty than these, are cultivated at great cost and call out much admiration from flower lovers whose tastes have been matured under the critical guidance of a polite environment."

I don't agree that "a beautiful article which is not expensive is accounted not beautiful." That may be true of people who are seeking beauty as status, but not for those who appreciate beauty for beauty's sake. As I said, I for one, appreciate the beauty of the taller, spikier, more wildly proliferating flowers like lupins, delphiniums, foxglove and hollyhocks, which also happen to be perrenials (depending on where you live). And though roses and lillies are more expensive to buy as cut flowers, pound for pound, when planting a flower garden, they are far more economical. Most varieties of lillies naturalize and so multiply. And a rose bush, if cared for appropriately can live and provide flowers for years on end. Also with roses, the more you cut, the more blooms your bush will provide.

More economical and common flowers like marigolds and petunias have to be bought and replaced annually. So though the initial cost of these plants is lower, in the long run one probably spends more because they have to replace them year after year.

And finally, how is that Veblen is qualified to measure beauty? Maybe to his taste, a petunia is just as beautiful as a rose, and so he believes it is unfairly judged to be less beautiful because it is less expensive, but beauty is subjective by it's very definition.

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Which is a very sweet way of saying that aesthetic tastes are conditioned by the admiration of the self. One might deduce from such juxtapositions that a face to face meeting between our goodselves would be fraught with much difficulty and not only on the subject of pretty flowers but on that whole range of goods which impute beauty to products which offer evidence of the expenditure of wasted effort such as-

asiatic lillies and antique rose varieties.

That's just bull. The qualities I find most beautiful about my children are what make them different from me. I love their dark skin. I love the blackness of my daughter's eyes. I love the curliness of their hair. By the same token, I also appreciate delicate fair coloring in people and find it beautiful as well. I don't believe most people surround themselves with mirror images of themselves because that is what they find most beautiful, or at least that has never been the case with me. The people I've chose to surround myself with look very different than I do.

And the flowers I love have nothing at all to do with where I came from or how I perceive myself to be. I like black-eyed susans and morning glories as much as I like roses and lillies.

A meeting between "our goodselves" would be fraught with difficulty because you would make it so. I would never call something you found interesting or beautiful "useless." If it brings you pleasure, who am I to call it useless? Yet you undermine my perceptions and taste by doing so. But that's okay Spendius. I understand that sometimes you just feel compelled to put me in my place. I know it's because you get frustrated that I just won't stay there. But believe me, I don't stay anywhere I don't want to for anyone. That's just the way I am.

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The scent is no more than the odour of one's refinement.

What does this mean? Scent is a real and measurable characteristic.

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Wayne's foot injury, on the other hand, is a matter of grave national importance and your students are to be congratulated for giving it serious consideration ahead of more trivial matters.

Why? Because it's something you find important and interesting?

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Yes. It is of a pile of stones constructed to prevent the weather disrupting meetings of the powerful with large quantities of wasted effort in your face. The camera, and the other street furniture, being totally functional, are possibly the only truly beautiful items to be appreciated by a scientific temperment.

Really? What about the moon? Is it useful to you at all (seeing as how it regulates the tides). I think most people of a scientific temperament would find that the most useful image in that picture. (I take it from your comments that the building is Parliament- thanks for your help with that).

I don't eat black pudding either. I tried it once, expecting to be repelled to be honest. But I found it curiously inoffensive and tasteless- nothing to be disgusted by, but not worth the extra calories.

So do you, or don't you, live in Yorkshire? And if you don't, why is Mathos so convinced that you do?

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aidan wrote-

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So do you, or don't you, live in Yorkshire? And if you don't, why is Mathos so convinced that you do?

Nope-

I don't live in Yorkshire nor do I come from there.

I assume Mathos is making use of a "literary conceit" which is basically to choose a subject for one's own convenience in order to show oneself in a good light or to show someone else in a bad light. All his literary productions are of that nature so it isn't surprising that he has invented this one. From a literary point of view he is blowing up paper bags in order to burst them and frighten the timid or icing cakes to flatter the feeble minded. They are rather old fashioned and denote an inabilty or inclination to write about the real world in a real way and a delight in writing about one's own thoughts.

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I don't agree that "a beautiful article which is not expensive is accounted not beautiful."

I didn't say you did agree.

From an aesthetic point of view all plants and all animals and all scenery have the same quality of beauty to a scientific temperment. Dandelions being just as beautiful as the rarest and most cultivated of orchids. It follows that a walk up the lane is just as inspiring as a visit to a flower show and much less expensive and enables one to live in better accomodation with the money saved. If I was gardening I would grow potatoes and cabbages and such like.

What Veblen provides for the attentive reader is a reduction in the taxes levied upon one's ego's peccadilloes which can often run away with one's substance. The irony is often that in the process of wasting money the customer, or punter, seeks it at a bargain price.

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beauty is subjective by it's very definition.

Which concedes the case. And I don't agree.

Beauty is the perfection of the case and a wild dandelion is likely to be more beautiful than a horticultural production strained through un-natural breeding techniques to flatter those to whom expense is the hallmark by which to measure it.

I didn't say that I found Wayne's foot injury important. I said that it was of "grave national importance" which it indubitally is from the evidence of how much it has been discussed. It is of interest to me because he is such a great player and I would like to see him perform on a world stage. I would have the same view about any other great player irrespective of which country he played for. Most players can be replaced easily but that is not the case with a small number of them whose absence would render the World Cup less of a spectacle. The attraction of great spectacles seems to be an objective characteristic of the human race and only members of the awkward squad resist this attraction.

You might be amazed at the hullaballoo which will take place if England reach the final or even the semi-finals. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Government declared a holiday if England win it. They might as well because the people will take one anyway.

If the moon is considered beautiful for the reason you give then so also is the oxygen in the atmosphere. Anyway tides are quite a nuisance sometimes and I don't think the atmospheric oxygen ever is.

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Your comments on Wayne Rooney, Oick, the only sensible writing I have ever witnessed from you! Try and keep it up.

Last year you spent time defending your home county, having examined the likes of Peter Sutcliffe and your bat wielding hero Geoffrey Boycott, you realise you are ashamed of belonging to such a place and now you deny it.

Typical!

Yes Aidan, I do eat 'black pudding' same as my daddy and his daddy before! Every Saturday, one of my grandsons spends the day working with me. We work in the garden, clean the cars, carry out all sorts of running repairs. In winter months we service plant and machinery for use on the garden and surrounds. At lunchtime, simply to be independent of granny and mum, we take a walk to the local nursery, we call in the little cafe area and dine. Bacon, tomato, sausage, eggs and black pudding, the 14 year old also has a plate of chips with his. Without fear of contradiction we then work it off during the remaining hours of the afternoon.

The colour of your eyes has as much to do with the essence of my statement as Freeman Hardy and Willis, Marks and Spencers, Laurel and Hardy or a Blair/Bush duet on Broadway. Your London photograph is similar to one on a bottle of HP sauce which I use to dress my 'black pudding.'

Can't that clown give a straight answer to anybody, without involving Veblen, Freud or some other misfit from a by gone age of unconventional
and non-contemporary yester-year?

I am pleased that you had such enjoyment from the Chelsea Flower Show, obviously your horticultural interests and the natural approval at the growers attempting to improve on or change a sample or two of natures offerings is beneficial to the good evolvement of mankind. Your children are fortunate indeed in having a mother of such an all round temperament, they are blessed.

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What a load of bollocks that is.

It would be more impressive if you piled it up higher.

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Nope-

I don't live in Yorkshire nor do I come from there.

I assume Mathos is making use of a "literary conceit" which is basically to choose a subject for one's own convenience in order to show oneself in a good light or to show someone else in a bad light. All his literary productions are of that nature so it isn't surprising that he has invented this one. From a literary point of view he is blowing up paper bags in order to burst them and frighten the timid or icing cakes to flatter the feeble minded. They are rather old fashioned and denote an inabilty or inclination to write about the real world in a real way and a delight in writing about one's own thoughts.

If I remember correctly Spendius, you're the one who initially told me you were from Yorkshire. I can remember Clary asking you at one point why you yourself were so disparaging about where you came from and had chosen to live. I do know what a literary conceit is. It seems that this is the method you've chosen to employ to blow up paper bags or ice cakes.

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I don't agree that "a beautiful article which is not expensive is accounted not beautiful."

I didn't say you did agree.

No, you didn't. That's true. Now are you going to say, "I didn't say it wasn't true?

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From an aesthetic point of view all plants and all animals and all scenery have the same quality of beauty to a scientific temperment. Dandelions being just as beautiful as the rarest and most cultivated of orchids. It follows that a walk up the lane is just as inspiring as a visit to a flower show and much less expensive and enables one to live in better accomodation with the money saved. If I was gardening I would grow potatoes and cabbages and such like.

Tell me, do you speak for all people of scientific temperament? Do none of them have individual taste? Maybe a favorite color, or a tendency to have their eye drawn to a particular shape represented in the natural world that for some inexplicable reason, they just find more pleasing than another? I agree that their innate tendency may be to find beauty in the utilitarian value of plants and accord it equally, but I also think you are denying their innate human-ness to assume that they have the ability to be so impartial.

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What Veblen provides for the attentive reader is a reduction in the taxes levied upon one's ego's peccadilloes which can often run away with one's substance. The irony is often that in the process of wasting money the customer, or punter, seeks it at a bargain price.

Are you in training to become a monk Spendius? Believe me, I have the utmost respect for anyone who can turn away from the temptations of conspicuous and empty consumption that so many of us in this world have adopted as our "religion" or way of life. But, can you explain to me why it's okay for you to spend money at the pub, but not for me to spend money on flowers for my garden?

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beauty is subjective by it's very definition

Which concedes the case. And I don't agree.

Beauty is the perfection of the case and a wild dandelion is likely to be more beautiful than a horticultural production strained through un-natural breeding techniques to flatter those to whom expense is the hallmark by which to measure it.

I don't know how that concedes the case. Maybe you could explain it to me.
If beauty is the perfection of the case - then whose interpretation of perfection are we using by which to measure whether something is beautiful or not? I feel almost certain that what you consider perfect and thus beautiful would be different than what I do. So whose impression is more correct? And why?

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I didn't say that I found Wayne's foot injury important. I said that it was of "grave national importance" which it indubitally is from the evidence of how much it has been discussed. It is of interest to me because he is such a great player and I would like to see him perform on a world stage. I would have the same view about any other great player irrespective of which country he played for. Most players can be replaced easily but that is not the case with a small number of them whose absence would render the World Cup less of a spectacle. The attraction of great spectacles seems to be an objective characteristic of the human race and only members of the awkward squad resist this attraction.

Believe me, I wish Wayne Rooney well. I admire his talent (which has been cultivated, and probably at great expense, by the way).

You find your great spectacle on the football pitch. I find mine at a flower show. Someone else finds it at a Nascar race. Why is any one any more acceptable than any of the others?

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You might be amazed at the hullaballoo which will take place if England reach the final or even the semi-finals. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Government declared a holiday if England win it. They might as well because the people will take one anyway.

I'm aware of that. But interestingly enough, I heard on radio 4 that 80% of people surveyed, (not only managers or bosses) are in favor of repercussions for people who call in sick during the World Cup finals. So to save a lot of sackings, it would be good for them to go ahead and call it a holiday.

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If the moon is considered beautiful for the reason you give then so also is the oxygen in the atmosphere. Anyway tides are quite a nuisance sometimes and I don't think the atmospheric oxygen ever is.

Usefulness= beauty. That was the reason you gave. I don't know, and I may have this wrong because I don't have the most scientific of temperaments, but I remember something about the pull of the moon giving the earth a slightly oval shape and keeping it tilted on it's axis therebye giving us seasons, etc. Not quite as necessary as atmospheric oxygen, I grant you that, but pretty darn useful, if you ask me.
But then again, it's visible and thus able to have physical beauty ascribed to it, whereas oxygen is not.

Mathos - I know you don't care what color my eyes are. That's why I went into so much detail telling you.

Eat whatever makes you happy Mathos. That's my philosophy when it comes to food.

In terms of my photo - hey you gave me an idea. Maybe I should try to sell it to HP- replace that old tired view of Big Ben they've been using for years- and make a load of money to spend on flowers.

Spendius reveres good thinking. And he finds it in these authors he admires. I think there's a place for that. But I also think there is much to be learned through one's own experience, and it should be considered to be just as valid if not more so when an individual is choosing whose particular wisdom to follow in living his or her own life.

In terms of my abilities as a mother - yes- I feel my children are lucky to have me. I know it might sound boastful- but I am a good mother and I have no trouble admitting that. Thanks again Buddy for all your kind and well-intentioned words.

PS Spendius - there wasn't one word of that that was bollocks.

You guys have a good Bank Holiday Monday. I got sun - how about you?

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aidan wrote-

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If I remember correctly Spendius, you're the one who initially told me you were from Yorkshire.

If you remembered correctly you would know that wasn't the case. I have never gone further than admitting I come from England and live in England in any post.

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Tell me, do you speak for all people of scientific temperament?

I try to but possibly not always successfully and it often happens that my words get twisted. I have no favourite colour. I like black underwear and white bottoms and grey smoke and brown beer and red postboxes and green grass and yellow lemon-cheese and purple passages and bluebells and orange tom-cats. I find curvaceous shapes more pleasing than others which I don't think inexplicable.

On literary conceits Shakespeare has fun in Sonnet 130.

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but I also think you are denying their innate human-ness to assume that they have the ability to be so impartial.

Which is a way of saying that you deny the human-ness of those who are impartial which is a claim that your human-ness is superior to other human-ness and probably based on your perception that there is a majority who will agree with you. But it is also a question of what one is impartial about. One might think you were claiming that the things you are not impartial about are more important than the things I'm not impartial about such as warm,comfy beds. I don't think impartiality relating to plants constitutes impartiality period.

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Are you in training to become a monk Spendius?

Not at all. Perish the thought. I find-

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conspicuous and empty consumption

pointless and what is much worse,hard work and expensive. Veblen called it the "night shift". It also tends to be invidious and thus aggressive.
It isn't keeping up with the Jones's it is showing them who's best.

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But, can you explain to me why it's okay for you to spend money at the pub, but not for me to spend money on flowers for my garden?

It isn't easy to go into that. It might have a hereditary base but more likely a difference in socialisations. But the pub is a communal activity where one's ego counts for very little, the beer is nutritious and euphoric and I see the health of pubs intimately connected with the health of freedom. One has to come to terms with others in a pub.

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If beauty is the perfection of the case - then whose interpretation of perfection are we using by which to measure whether something is beautiful or not?

Any healthy and normative organism is perfect and thus beautiful. In treating with the normative one has to know a lot about the organism which appearences don't always show. The too fragile fetlocks of racehorses are ugly really. Money has arrived on the scene as with the florist's wares. Are you denying that an invidious comparison is going on in the choice of flowers?

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You find your great spectacle on the football pitch. I find mine at a flower show. Someone else finds it at a Nascar race. Why is any one any more acceptable than any of the others?

They are all acceptable. Are you suggesting there's nothing here to discuss? You brought flowers into the thread which you are perfectly entitled to do. You implied by your treatment that attending flower shows and appreciating the differences between types of flowers is a superior behaviour. I simply offered discussion on the subject. My dear Mother would have agreed with your every word and she was very trying.I was forced to apply elaborate avoidance tactics when eating and sleeping and patchings-up were done with. She never gave up trying to mould me into some imaginative concept she had of what her son should be like no aspect of which was of the slightest interest to me.

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Usefulness= beauty.

Yes. Veblen's dictum was "Waste=status and Use=Odium." Not for him of course. He was talking about a principle at work in American society in about 1900 and little mitigation has been applied since although there have been changes in the forms.

I once loaned a copy of his famous book to the wife of a friend of mine who ran a dress shop,after a heated discussion in the pub. She tore it to shreds in a fit of rage after a mere 7 pages. It is quite a challenge I must admit.

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At times Spendius you come across as a supercilious quaffing single minded moron.

You are vainglorious in your renderings of misty twaddle which would be far better, aligned to the mating call of a Kilimanjaro katydid.

Aidan, it has nothing to do with the colour of your eyes. FULL STOP. It was simply the name of a song which I thought apt to throw in the box after the renderings of the oink.

There is little point, no, no point whatsoever in your assuming I am making statements which I am not. Your tying yourself in knots with Spendius by questioning his statements which he then retracts and denies ever saying and if you show it to him in the concept of 'what can't speak can't lie.'

The clown will simply redirect an interpretation of it to his own choosing which is as far away from the truth as Birmingham Alabama is from Moscow.

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If you remembered correctly you would know that wasn't the case. I have never gone further than admitting I come from England and live in England in any post.

Well, pardon me. I guess I stand corrected.

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Which is a way of saying that you deny the human-ness of those who are impartial which is a claim that your human-ness is superior to other human-ness and probably based on your perception that there is a majority who will agree with you. But it is also a question of what one is impartial about. One might think you were claiming that the things you are not impartial about are more important than the things I'm not impartial about such as warm,comfy beds. I don't think impartiality relating to plants constitutes impartiality period.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. You're wrong about that. I don't think my human-ness is any more important or superior to or better than anyone else's. Anyone who really knows me would laugh at such a claim.

Funny you should mention warm, comfy beds as something you're not impartial about. Me neither. That is the single most important aspect of my life in my home(in terms of providing me comfort) along with a nice, big, deep and clean bathtub. I could live in a house that didn't have a shower, but I couldn't live in a house that didn't have a bathtub. (And I don't need a lecture about how much more unsanitary a bath is as compared to a shower. It's not about sanitation for me - it's about comfort - almost as in a return to the womb kind of comfort).

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It isn't easy to go into that. It might have a hereditary base but more likely a difference in socialisations. But the pub is a communal activity where one's ego counts for very little, the beer is nutritious and euphoric and I see the health of pubs intimately connected with the health of freedom. One has to come to terms with others in a pub.

You're talking apples and oranges here. I find pubs euphoric, fun and freeing too. I enjoy coming to terms with others in a pub. It's always a little bit easier and more fun when one has had one's tonic.

But where the heck does ego come in in a garden? There's no one else to even recognize you have an ego in a garden. It's a very solitary and peaceful bit of work. Good for the soul...

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Any healthy and normative organism is perfect and thus beautiful.

My initial reaction to this statement Spendius, is that it's beautiful. And also surprising, might I add, coming from you. But then I start thinking about that word normative....what the heck. I won't pick it apart. I like it.

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In treating with the normative one has to know a lot about the organism which appearences don't always show.

True

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The too fragile fetlocks of racehorses are ugly really.

Yes, especially when you know in what way the horse's body has been weakened by them.

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Money has arrived on the scene as with the florist's wares. Are you denying that an invidious comparison is going on in the choice of flowers?

Maybe for those who are into making comparisons about such things. To tell you the truth, I don't even notice who has what flowers in their garden. I just look at the overall picture, the design. And as I said, I tend to like the more tall and wild looking perennial borders than the cultivated and measured out formal gardens.

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You brought flowers into the thread which you are perfectly entitled to do. You implied by your treatment that attending flower shows and appreciating the differences between types of flowers is a superior behaviour.

Bull. If anything, I feel like it makes me seem like a nerd, and certainly not superior to anything any one else does. You're projecting.

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My dear Mother would have agreed with your every word and she was very trying.I was forced to apply elaborate avoidance tactics when eating and sleeping and patchings-up were done with. She never gave up trying to mould me into some imaginative concept she had of what her son should be like no aspect of which was of the slightest interest to me.

How sad for you both. Seriously. I know it's hard to feel as if you can't measure up to what someone else wants you to be. And it's especially hard if it's someone who is supposed to love you unconditionally, but seems disappointed with all of the choices you make in your life.

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Yes. Veblen's dictum was "Waste=status and Use=Odium." Not for him of course. He was talking about a principle at work in American society in about 1900 and little mitigation has been applied since although there have been changes in the forms.

I once loaned a copy of his famous book to the wife of a friend of mine who ran a dress shop,after a heated discussion in the pub. She tore it to shreds in a fit of rage after a mere 7 pages. It is quite a challenge I must admit.

This Veblen sounds more and more interesting. Maybe I should check him out. Do you think his Night Shift would be in the library - or would I have to buy it?

Mathos - I know the song. I just enjoy taking you really, really literally. Especially when I know you're being really, really sarcastic. Can we move on now? (That is unless you want to tell me what color your eyes are.)

I don't tie myself in knots. I like doing this. I don't have this kind of relationship with any other person in my life. I find it unique and kind of refreshing.

Because I know both of you will interpret whatever I say however you want, and however I interpret what you say, you'll say it's wrong. It's an exercise in creativity and perseverence. And every once in a while, I get a really good laugh out of it or learn something.

Don't you worry about me buddy. When it gets to be too much for me, I'll let you know. Okay?

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aidan wrote-

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I could live in a house that didn't have a shower, but I couldn't live in a house that didn't have a bathtub. (And I don't need a lecture about how much more unsanitary a bath is as compared to a shower. It's not about sanitation for me - it's about comfort - almost as in a return to the womb kind of comfort).

I'm the same. I have a theory about it. You can't think in a shower. People who have showers must not want to think. Maybe they daren't think. But I'll not elaborate in case Mathos is a showerer.

Regarding dear Mama. Nothing sad about it. All my mates Mums were the same. From what I've picked up about American women they seem twice as bad and it's so overwheming that there seems to be little opposition anymore. I like South Park but that's Canadian I gather. I always disliked adults and vowed that when I became one I would avoid being as bad as that lot who surrounded me. But they weren't all bad. They were like the weather-that's all. No big deal. Background noise.

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How sad for you both. Seriously. I know it's hard to feel as if you can't measure up to what someone else wants you to be. And it's especially hard if it's someone who is supposed to love you unconditionally, but seems disappointed with all of the choices you make in your life.

I don't know how you can talk like that. I never gave it a moment's thought and still don't. If I was going to worry about not measuring up to what someone else wants me to be I'm sure I'd be in a padded cell by now. Let them want.

The night shift was a phrase Veblen used to categorise determined consumerism. It isn't a book. The Theory of the Leisure Class is his most famous book. I would have loved to stroll around the Chelsea Flower Show with Veblen when we had both had a few. His influence is enormous but more or less unknown.

You can get nearly any book in our libraries for 50 p. Sometimes they take a while to arrive. I waited 6 months for The Romantic Agony by Mario Praz. I think there's only one copy of that in the country. Hardly anything on the shelves is worth the bother.

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Hey Spendius- You know last night I couldn't sleep so I googled old Thorstein. I read a chapter or two. It was late, so I need to go back and reread it, but the part I did read was interesting. Certainly interesting enough to get me to read more. A lot of his work is reprinted in its entirety on the internet (through the University of Virginia press, I believe it was) so I won't have to worry about ordering it from the library.

It reminded me of the census from about a hundred years ago that a friend of mine had at her house the other day when I was over there. She's the one I told Mathos about who is a retired English teacher and quite a historian. She worked in the office of public records in London for a while, where the original Domesday Book is kept, or at least was for a while during the time she was working there. She told me she actually touched a page. Our village is mentioned in the Domesday book- that's how old it is.

Anyway, reading this census with the names and the ages and the way people were labeled according to what their jobs were was really, really interesting. Divisions of labor and classes, that sort of thing. Those who were landowners or merchants and then others who called themselves launderesses or common laborers, etc. It was interesting to me to see how many people had servants living in their homes with them. I'd really love to find and read a more comprehensive history of a typical village and the lifestyle of each of the classes of people who inhabited it. I have somewhat of an idea from reading Hardy's novels (for instance), but I'd be more interested in a historical study. Any suggestions?

American moms (and fathers) can be very pressuring on American kids to be or do or even excel at a sport that they think is appropriate. It's kind of like a disease, I think (achievement has become just as consuming as acquisition in certain segments of our culture). I find that attitude much less prevalent over here, although people have told me it's pretty epidemic in London. I'm glad I grew up when I did. I wouldn't want to be a kid in America today. I try to remember how much I appreciated the freedom I was given to find my own way, and I try to pass that on to my kids. As long as they have the skills to make a living and be happy - I'll feel like I've done my job.
Speaking of which, my son, now wants to study economics instead of medicine at university. I'm happy about that. I think it will be more condusive to him achieving some kind of balance in his life- although it's his decision, of course. I mean one thing you learn as a parent, is they're going to do whatever they want to do anyway. It's easier on them and you to come to terms with that than try to make them be or do something they either can't or don't want to be or do.
I'll suggest he read Veblen and see what he thinks.

South Park is funny. Irreverent. Did you hear all the hullabaloo about Tom Cruise and Isaac Hayes and Scientology to do with that? There were some really funny bits around that. Did you see any of those?

Hope you have a good afternoon. Talk to you later.

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Sheep - a poem in one sentence

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