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WOMEN IN JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS VERSUS WOMEN IN ISLAM

 
 
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 08:04 am
Do Judaism and Christianity, truly, offer women a better treatment than Islam does? What is the Truth?

Since there is a lot of media propaganda against ISLAM about women, liberation and so on, I have decided to post this topic so that readers of able2know can verify what is truth.I have almost several points to compare but I have decided to post just two important points, I wish not to extract the whole information so that you get bored with the Subject:

Quote:
2. EVE'S FAULT ?


The three religions agree on one basic fact:
Both women and men are created by God,
The Creator of the whole universe.

However, disagreement starts soon after the creation of the first man, Adam, and the first woman, Eve. The Judaeo-Christian conception of the creation of Adam and Eve is narrated in detail in

God prohibited both of them from eating the fruits of the forbidden tree. The serpent seduced Eve to eat from it and Eve, in turn, seduced Adam to eat with her. When God rebuked Adam for what he did, he put all the blame on Eve,

Genesis 2:4-3:24.
"The woman you put here with me --she gave me some fruit from the tree and I ate it." Consequently, God said to Eve:

"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."

To Adam He said:

"Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree .... Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life..."

The Islamic conception of the first creation is found in several places in the Quran, for example:

"O Adam dwell with your wife in the Garden and enjoy as you wish but approach not this tree or you run into harm and transgression. Then Satan whispered to them in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them and he said: 'Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest you become angels or such beings as live forever.' And he swore to them both that he was their sincere adviser. So by deceit he brought them to their fall: when they tasted the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: 'Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was your avowed enemy?' They said: 'Our Lord we have wronged our own souls and if You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost' " (7:19:23).

A careful look into the two accounts of the story of the Creation reveals some essential differences.

The Quran, contrary to the Bible, places equal blame on both Adam and Eve for their mistake.

Nowhere in the Quran can one find even the slightest hint that Eve tempted Adam to eat from the tree or even that she had eaten before him. Eve in the Quran is no temptress, no seducer, and no deceiver.

Moreover, Eve is not to be blamed for the pains of childbearing. God, according to the Quran, punishes no one for another's faults. Both Adam and Eve committed a sin and then asked God for forgiveness and He forgave them both.

Quote:
3. EVE'S LEGACY


The image of Eve as temptress in the Bible has resulted in an extremely negative impact on women throughout the Judaeo-Christian tradition.

All women were believed to have inherited from their mother, the Biblical Eve, both her guilt and her guile.

Consequently, they were all untrustworthy, morally inferior, and wicked. Menstruation, pregnancy, and childbearing were considered the just punishment for the eternal guilt of the cursed female sex.

In order to appreciate how negative the impact of the Biblical Eve was on all her female descendants we have to look at the writings of some of the most important Jews and Christians of all time. Let us start with the Old Testament and look at excerpts from what is called the Wisdom Literature in which we find:

(Ecclesiastes 7:26-28).

"I find more bitter than death the woman who is a snare, whose heart is a trap and whose hands are chains. The man who pleases God will escape her, but the sinner she will ensnare....while I was still searching but not finding, I found one upright man among a thousand but not one upright woman among them all"

In another part of the Hebrew literature which is found in the Catholic Bible we read:

"No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).

Jewish Rabbis listed nine curses inflicted on women as a result of the Fall:

"To the woman He gave nine curses and death:
the burden of the blood of menstruation and the blood of virginity;
the burden of pregnancy;
the burden of childbirth;
the burden of bringing up the children;
her head is covered as one in mourning;
she pierces her ear like a permanent slave or slave girl who serves her master;
she is not to be believed as a witness;
and after everything--death."

To the present day, orthodox Jewish men in their daily morning prayer recite

[quote]"Blessed be God King of the universe that Thou has not made me a woman."

The women, on the other hand, thank God every morning for "making me according to Thy will." [/quote]


Another prayer found in many Jewish prayer books:

"Praised be God that he has not created me a gentile. Praised be God that he has not created me a woman. Praised be God that he has not created me an ignoramus."

The Biblical Eve has played a far bigger role in Christianity than in Judaism.

Her sin has been pivotal to the whole Christian faith because the Christian conception of the reason for the mission of Jesus Christ on Earth stems from Eve's disobedience to God.

She had sinned and then seduced Adam to follow her suit. Consequently, God expelled both of them from Heaven to Earth, which had been cursed because of them. They bequeathed their sin, which had not been forgiven by God, to all their descendants and, thus, all humans are born in sin. In order to purify human beings from their 'original sin', God had to sacrifice Jesus, who is considered to be the Son of God, on the cross.

Therefore, Eve is responsible for her own mistake, her husband's sin, the original sin of all humanity, and the death of the Son of God.

In other words, one woman acting on her own caused the fall of humanity.

What about her daughters? They are sinners like her and have to be treated as such. Listen to the severe tone of St. Paul in the New Testament:

"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I don't permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner" (I Timothy 2:11-14).

St. Tertullian was even more blunt than St. Paul, while he was talking to his 'best beloved sisters' in the faith, he said: 6

"Do you not know that you are each an Eve? The sentence of God on this sex of yours lives in this age: the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the Devil's gateway: You are the unsealer of the forbidden tree: You are the first deserter of the divine law: You are she who persuaded him whom the devil was not valiant enough to attack. You destroyed so easily God's image, man. On account of your desert even the Son of God had to die."

St. Augustine was faithful to the legacy of his predecessors, he wrote to a friend:

"What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman......I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children."

Centuries later, St. Thomas Aquinas still considered women as defective:

"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence."

Finally, the renowned reformer Martin Luther could not see any benefit from a woman but bringing into the world as many children as possible regardless of any side effects:

"If they become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that's why they are there"

Again and again all women are denigrated because of the image of Eve the temptress, thanks to the Genesis account. To sum up, the Judaeo-Christian conception of women has been poisoned by the belief in the sinful nature of Eve and her female offspring.

If we now turn our attention to what the Quran has to say about women, we will soon realize that the Islamic conception of women is radically different from the Judaeo-Christian one. Let the Quran speak for itself:

Quraan (33:35).
"For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise-- For them all has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward"

Quraan Wise" (9:71).
"The believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil, they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His Mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power,

Quraan(3:195).
"And their Lord answered them: Truly I will never cause to be lost the work of any of you, Be you a male or female, you are members one of another"

Quraan (40:40).
"Whoever works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof, and whoever works a righteous deed -whether man or woman- and is a believer- such will enter the Garden of bliss"

Quraan (16:97).
"Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily to him/her we will give a new life that is good and pure, and we will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions"

It is clear that the Quranic view of women is no different than that of men.

They, both, are God's creatures whose sublime goal on earth is to worship their Lord, do righteous deeds, and avoid evil and they, both, will be assessed accordingly.

The Quran never mentions that the woman is the devil's gateway or that she is a deceiver by nature.

The Quran, also, never mentions that man is God's image; all men and all women are his creatures, that is all.

According to the Quran, a woman's role on earth is not limited only to childbirth. She is required to do as many good deeds as any other man is required to do.

The Quran never says that no upright women have ever existed. To the contrary, the Quran has instructed all the believers, women as well as men, to follow the example of those ideal women such as the Virgin Mary and the Pharoah's wife:

Quraan (66:11-13).

"And Allah sets forth, As an example to those who believe, the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: 'O my lord build for me, in nearness to you, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings and save me from those who do wrong.' And Mary the daughter of Imran who guarded her chastity and We breathed into her body of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His revelations and was one of the devout"
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 7,519 • Replies: 142
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 08:08 am
there is a difference between talking the talk and walking the walk
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 08:23 am
Quote:
It is clear that the Quranic view of women is no different than that of men.


I guess that's why women are not allowed to drive cars in Saudi Arabia and must keep their faces vailed; because they're equal.


Quote:
Having said that: I would like to defend the proposition that in Islam women are subordinate to men. The sexual morality propagated in the Islam leads, when put into practice, to cruel violations of the rights of women and girls. By making a statement like this one 1 know that 1 am inviting disagreement. I am most interested in the arguments of my critics. Let me demonstrate this inequality. Accroding to Islamic teachings in the Quran and hadith: Muslim men are free to go where they want while most Muslim women are confined to their houses. Muslim men do not need permission to leave the house from women; women do. Muslim men are not obligated to veil their beauty but Muslim women must. A man may divorce his wife as easily as repeating the words "I divorce you" three times in the presence of two witnesses. A woman who wants to leave her husband must prove at least that he does not meet her material needs. She must prove that he is impotent. She must prove that he cannot make her pregnant. She must have the approval of her wali (or guardian). A man may inherit twice as much as a woman. His testimony in matters of conflict is worth twice hers. Just in case there is a hereafter, women know from the prophet that their sort is Over-represented in hell. While men can look forward to 72 virgins and companionship with their men folk. It is demanded in the Qur'an that a woman obeys her husband indefinitely. For the man conforming to the wishes of wife is an option. A man may have sexual intercourse with his wife when and how he wants. Her refusal will invite the curses of angels and the wrath of her husband. If a man rejects his wife in bed the angels are silent and her disappointment may lead her husband to think that she is the grip of the devil who fills her with uncontrollable desires. Even though a man may marry four wives provided he promises to treat them equally a woman has the right to only one man. And even this right is limited by the fact that she cannot do so without permission from her guardian (father, brother, patemal uncle).


http://www.iheu.org/node/1534
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 08:31 am
I highly recommend The Veil of Shame: The Role of Women in the Contemporary Fiction of North Africa and the Arab World, Eveline Accad, Editions Naaman, Paris, 1978. You will probably find Miss Accad's name written as Evelyn in English-language editions (the book was originally published in French--and her first name is sometimes rendered Evelyne in French). Miss Accad looks both at the Quranic view of women, and at the reality of the place of women in the Muslim world. Miss Accad is (or once was) a professor in the Department of French at the University of Illinois. She is a native of the Lebanon, and has long been interested in the place of women in the middle east and north Africa, both in reality and in fiction.
0 Replies
 
dalahow2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 09:30 am
To the present day, orthodox Jewish men in their daily morning prayer recite


"Blessed be God King of the universe that Thou has not made me a woman."

The women, on the other hand, thank God every morning for "making me according to Thy will."


we don't like that as Muslims...
0 Replies
 
dalahow2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 09:41 am
QUOTE FROM THE HOLY BOOKS........
Quote:
While I am quoting from various HOLY BOOKS of the three different religions, readers of able2know have the will to listen and see the differences between these three religions from their HOLY BOOKS, The Quraan, The Bible and The Talmud.

Any other deviations like writers of Anti-ISLAM novels can write anything out of their own expressions but lets us what the HOLY books have to say)..


SHAMEFUL DAUGHTERS

In fact, the difference between the Biblical and the Quranic attitude towards the female sex starts as soon as a female is born.

For example the Bible states that the period of the mother's ritual impurity is twice as long if a girl is born than if a boy is (Leviticus 12:2-5).

The Catholic Bible does state explicitly that "The birth of a daughter is a loss" (Sirach 22:3)

In contrast to this shocking statement, boys receive special praise, "A man who educates his son will be the envy of his enemy." (Ecclesiasticus 30:3)

A daughter is considered a painful burden, a potential source of shame to her father

"Your daughter is headstrong? Keep a sharp look-out that she doesn't make you the laughing stock of your enemies, the talk of the town, the object of common gossip, and put you to public shame."(Ecclesiasticus 42:11)

It was this very same idea of treating daughters as sources of shame that led the pagan Arabs, before the advent of Islam, to practice female infanticide.

The Quran severely condemned this heinous practice

Quraan (16:59)
"When news is brought to one of them of the birth of a female child, his face darkens and he is filled with inward grief. With shame does he hide himself from his people because of the bad news he has had! Shall he retain her on contempt or bury her in the dust? Ah! what an evil they decide on?"

It has to be mentioned that this sinister crime would have never stopped in Arabia if it were not to the power of the scathing terms the Quran used to condemn this practice in various chapters (16:59, 43:17, 81:8-9).

The Quran, moreover, makes no distinction between boys and girls.

In contrast to the Bible, the Quran considers the birth of a female as a gift and a blessing from God, same as the birth of a male.

The Quran even mentions the gift of the female birth first,

" To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. He creates what he wills. He bestows female children to whomever he wills and bestows male children to whomever he wills"(42:49)


FEMALE EDUCATION:

The difference between the Biblical and the Quranic conceptions of women is not limited to the newly born female, it extends far beyond that.

Let's compare their attitudes towards a female trying to learn her religion.

The heart of Judaism is the Torah, the law. However, according to the Talmud,

"women are exempt from the study of the Torah."

In the first century C.E., Rabbi Eliezer said:

"If any man teaches his daughter Torah it is as though he taught her lechery."

The attitude of St. Paul in the New Testament isn't brighter

"As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."(I Corinthians 14:34,35)

How can a woman learn if she is not allowed to speak? How can a woman grow intellectually if she is obliged to be in a state of full submission? How can she broaden her horizons if her one and only source of information is her husband at home?

Now, to be fair, we should ask: is the Quranic position any different?

One short story narrated in the Quran sums its position up concisely. Khawlah was a Muslim woman whose husband Aws at a moment of anger pronounced this statement:

"You are to me as the back of my mother."

This was held by pagan Arabs to be a statement of divorce which freed the husband from any conjugal responsibility but didn't leave the wife free to leave the husband's home or to marry another man.

Having heard these words from her husband, Khawlah was in a miserable situation. She went straight to the Prophet Mohamed of Islam to plead her case.

The prophet was of the opinion that she should be patient since there seemed to be no way out.

Khawla kept arguing with the prophet in an attempt to save her suspended marriage.

Shortly, the Quran intervened; Khawla's plea was accepted. The divine verdict abolished this iniquitous custom.

One full chapter (Chapter 58) of the Quran whose title is *Almujadilah* or "The woman who is arguing" was devoted to this incident,

"Allah has heard and accepted the statement of the woman who pleads with you (the prophet) concerning her husband and carries her complaint to Allah, and Allah hears the arguments between both of you for Allah hears and sees all things...." (58:1).

A woman in the Quranic conception has the right to argue even with the Prophet of Islam himself. No one has the right to instruct her to be silent. She is under no obligation to consider her husband the one and only reference in matters of law and religion
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 10:11 am
dalahow2 wrote:
To the present day, orthodox Jewish men in their daily morning prayer recite


"Blessed be God King of the universe that Thou has not made me a woman."

The women, on the other hand, thank God every morning for "making me according to Thy will."


we don't like that as Muslims...


Lots of us Jews ain't Orthodox. No such tradition in the Reform and Conservative movements, where women are Cantors and Rabbis, among many other things.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 10:15 am
Given that the alleged "holy books" are works of fiction no less than novels which the author of this thread alleges to be anti-Islam, there is little to choose between them.

There can be no doubt that, for whatever the religious tradition is or has been, women have historically been treated as chattel and nearly as slaves in the middle east, and that despite what one may allege about scriptural injunction, have been subjected to humiliation, marginalization, and even torture and murder.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 10:23 am
Once again, i highly recommend Miss Accad's book. It is not a novel, not a work of fiction--it is literary analysis, it is a work of comparative literature. It concerns itself with both the reality of the place of women in Arab and north African cultures, and the portrayal of women in the literature of those reasons.

For all that Dalahow wishes to restrict discussion, this site, as is the case with any board, cannot be restricted to the prejudices of any particular member. It cannot be ignored that in many, many Muslim nations, female infanticide, female genital mutilation and even the murder of women alleged to have "dishonored" a family remain common crimes.
0 Replies
 
dalahow2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 10:28 am
see the statistics and what the media is saying about ISLAM's growth

Quote:
0 Replies
 
dalahow2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 10:34 am
It is better when you read about the way ISLAM says about women and compare with the way various cultures in the middle east treat their women.

That is the only time you will understand to separate ISLAM and CULTURE of various tribes of the world.

In simple terms, ISLAM brought rights for women and MEN took away those rights.

It is not the other way..
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 10:36 am
Islam could not have brought women rights unless they were not present to begin with. If such were the case, then the evidence is that Islam has failed to liberate women from their oppressed lives. Either way you slice it, Islam is meaningless in the lives of women in so far as their civil rights and their personal security are concerned.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 10:43 am
By the way, Dalahow, we've had others show up here to post cut-and-paste jobs of propaganda from Islamic web sites--and we weren't impressed by them, either.
0 Replies
 
muslim1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 01:43 pm
dalahow2,

You're most welcome to the forum. May Allah reward you Jannah for this important topic.

Indeed, Islam is the only way of life that gives women their full rights.
Each and every one of the following points is a real and true teaching of Islam, based on the Holy Qur'an and on the tradition of the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him):

- Islam declared women and men equal in rights and duties.

- Islam condemned pre-Islamic practices degrading and oppressing women.

- The same injunctions and prohibitions of Islam equally apply to both sexes.

- Islam gave woman the right of inheritance and the right of individual independent ownership unhampered by father, husband, brother, son or anyone else.

- Islam gave women the right to accept or reject a marriage proposal free from pressure, and by mutual agreement to specify in the marriage contract that she has the right to divorce (if she misses that option she has the right to seek court divorce if she deems the marriage to have failed beyond repair).

- Islam does not require woman to change her name at marriage.

- Islam protects the family and condemns the betrayal of marital fidelity. It recognizes only one type of family: husband and wife united by authentic marriage contract.

- "Heaven is at the feet of mothers", is a basic Islamic teaching (which means: if you're kind to your mother, if you obey her, if you don't 'forget' her when she's old... then God (Allah in Arabic) will grant you Heaven (Paradise)).

- "The best of you are the kindest to their wives and I am your best to mine", is a teaching by prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

- Islam enjoins sounds morality in thinking, behavior and appearance. Dress fashions and social patterns that reduce woman to a sex object and exploit her as such are not acceptable to Islam.

- The observance of chastity and moral standards is equally demanded by Islam from both men and women. "Women are the siblings of men", is a saying of prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).


And Allah knows best.
0 Replies
 
mystery girl
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 01:51 pm
muslim1 wrote:
dalahow2,

You're most welcome to the forum. May Allah reward you Jannah for this important topic.

Indeed, Islam is the only way of life that gives women their full rights.
Each and every one of the following points is a real and true teaching of Islam, based on the Holy Qur'an and on the tradition of the prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him):

- Islam declared women and men equal in rights and duties.

- Islam condemned pre-Islamic practices degrading and oppressing women.

- The same injunctions and prohibitions of Islam equally apply to both sexes.

- Islam gave woman the right of inheritance and the right of individual independent ownership unhampered by father, husband, brother, son or anyone else.

- Islam gave women the right to accept or reject a marriage proposal free from pressure, and by mutual agreement to specify in the marriage contract that she has the right to divorce (if she misses that option she has the right to seek court divorce if she deems the marriage to have failed beyond repair).

- Islam does not require woman to change her name at marriage.

- Islam protects the family and condemns the betrayal of marital fidelity. It recognizes only one type of family: husband and wife united by authentic marriage contract.

- "Heaven is at the feet of mothers", is a basic Islamic teaching (which means: if you're kind to your mother, if you obey her, if you don't 'forget' her when she's old... then God (Allah in Arabic) will grant you Heaven (Paradise)).

- "The best of you are the kindest to their wives and I am your best to mine", is a teaching by prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

- Islam enjoins sounds morality in thinking, behavior and appearance. Dress fashions and social patterns that reduce woman to a sex object and exploit her as such are not acceptable to Islam.

- The observance of chastity and moral standards is equally demanded by Islam from both men and women. "Women are the siblings of men", is a saying of prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).


And Allah knows best.


Excellent. I can't wait to see the Summer 2006 line of burkhas for men this year!
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 02:38 pm
dalahow2

"Truth" like "beauty" tends to reside in the eye of the beholder. However irrespective of any negotiation where you will cite the religiously inclined lost sheep seeking a new shepherd, the evidence for the male chauvinism of Islam shrieks out so loudly that only the desperate would seek to disguise it. Only today for example the BBC reported a government enquiry into the thousand cases of forced muslim marriage per annum reported in the UK. All Abrahamic fundamentalists tend to be inclined to male chauvinism, but Islam is without doubt the prime example.

I quote one of your recent recent converts to Islam on a documentary who shouted "Why don't you make your women cover their legs ?" to which the answer was given "Nobody owns women. They make their own decisions" . With converts like these I suggest you rewrite your script !
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 10:47 pm
dalahow2 wrote:
To the present day, orthodox Jewish men in their daily morning prayer recite


"Blessed be God King of the universe that Thou has not made me a woman."

The women, on the other hand, thank God every morning for "making me according to Thy will."


we don't like that as Muslims...

Then I suggest you don't do it.
I don't like mass murdering savages proclaiming their bastard Jihad against Dar al-Harb either.
So I don't do that.
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 11:41 pm
Can't remember which preacher said this, but it has always stuck with me:

Eve was taken not of Adams head lest she should rule over him...

Not of his feet lest she be below him...

But of his side... that she would be equal with him...

Under his arm so she would be protected by him...

Close to his heart so she would be loved by him....

:wink:
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:13 am
I'm still sitting here waiting for a woman from the middle east or elsewhere to come a-posting on these sorts of threads.

Where are the wimmins at? Come out! We'd like to speak with thee. Smile
0 Replies
 
Treya
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 12:26 am
Yes... won't you please come out.....

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/princesshephzibah/devhobbes.gif

Muuuuhuuaaaaahahaha!

LOL
0 Replies
 
 

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