Rethinking Homosexuality

I diednt even catch rl"s pivot point, he can turn on a coffe bean.

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farmerman wrote:

rl is sticking with his guns that all suicide is a "sin". I remember arguing (inas much as one could argue with an un) Sister Attila that Id heard that many Japanes commited suicide rather than be captured by the Yanks. Also, they flew their planes into our battleships and became weapons. Sister Attila , never missed a beat, "Its always a sin" , she said, and then proceeded to break my knuckles with her holy shillalah.

Don't think you'll find where suicide has been discussed as 'sin or no' by me , but you're welcome to chime in.

While you're here, give us your opinion: Is suicide an irrational act? I say yes, but have many that apparently disagree.

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I think it's amazing how a Topic that is started about enlightenment, understanding, tolerance, acceptance, compassion, and Thunders epiphany has turned into a totally different discussion.

This Topic should be a celebration for thunderrunner32. Instead, it has turned into one persons insistance that this be all about him, and his tiny, closed, circular mind!

Thunder, as for me, CONGRATULATIONS!

Some people get it, others are just too limited to understand. Lamentable as that is, it's not about him ... it's about you!

Again, I'm glad to see that you have come to have compassion and understanding of a very important part of life. Thanks to people like you, overall opinions are changing in America. Perhaps, finally, gay and lesbian folks can get fair treatment under the law, and in society.

With high regard!!

Anon

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Chumly wrote:

I agree the mom should be held accountable for her actions. Nevertheless I think you would find in a trial by jury that her crimes would be considered considerably more heinous if the daughter committed suicide on account of the mother's actions. I think you would find it not uncommon to have considerably harsher charges laid due the daughter's suicide than if the daughter had not committed suicide.

I am not sure what you mean when you say "Now I am waiting to see if you get trashed as a homophobe, because you made the mom a lesbian."

It was a joke, because your syntax made it sound as if you could be referring to the mom and not the daughter.

And I agree that a jury probably would impose a stiffer penalty.

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Anon has a very good point. When Thunderrunner first arrived at this site, his piont of view was deeply mired in biblical injunction, as some one preacher or another had fed it to him. His earliest posts give all the evidence of intolerance and closed-mineded adherence to dogma that one could ever think to find.

Anon is completely right, Thunderrunner is to be congratulated for having raised inquiry and thought above blind parroting of dogmatic points of view.

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suicide isnt always an irrational act , as in "causes one would die for", Picketts charge, kamikaze, failure to surrender to an enemy, people with terminal or severely debilitating sicknesses, and maybe a few others like "being a Cubs fan" cant consider suicide irrational. Least I dont.

Sorry, I jumped in not reading this from the first page.
Ive been called gay because I usually dress well and have a neatly kempt beard. Theres a certain amount of gayness in all of us. Those that dont admit it are afraid its catching.

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real life wrote:

Chumly wrote:
I agree the mom should be held accountable for her actions. Nevertheless I think you would find in a trial by jury that her crimes would be considered considerably more heinous if the daughter committed suicide on account of the mother's actions. I think you would find it not uncommon to have considerably harsher charges laid due the daughter's suicide than if the daughter had not committed suicide.

I am not sure what you mean when you say "Now I am waiting to see if you get trashed as a homophobe, because you made the mom a lesbian."

It was a joke, because your syntax made it sound as if you could be referring to the mom and not the daughter.

And I agree that a jury probably would impose a stiffer penalty.

A good joke, and we agree on the stiffer penalty, I'll have you converted to a godless heathen like the famed Thunderrunner in no time Wink

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When the girl was imagined the abused daughter of a rampaging lesbian, the mother is responsible.

When the victim is a gay boy, tough **** for him.

Heartbreaking.

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Thank goodness for Thunder!!

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real life wrote:

ehBeth wrote:
So, in other words you're not actually interested in the response to this.

real life wrote:
Where does it reference homosexuality and suicide on this CDC link?

If you don't care why people commit suicide, or what can be done to prevent it, there's really no point in me giving you any further 'clues'.

Which I kinda suspected, but it's helpful of you to clarify it.

~~~~~~~~

Some people like science and statistics. Others go with a mood. <shrug>

I am interested to see if CDC takes the 'blame others' approach that some in this thread have championed.

I think prevention efforts are well worth it because every human life is infinitely valuable and precious.

But prevention efforts are headed the wrong direction if someone other than the person responsible is made a 'target' for blame.

rl, did you ever comment on the WHO position? I don't know what, if any position the CDC has taken but I don't think it would be the CDC regardless. The NIMH is probably more likely to make the official stance for the US government, not the CDC, but what was missing from the WHO piece?

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Is suicide an irrational act?

It depends on what definition of "irrational" you choose to use. If you use this one:
1) not endowed with reason or understanding: by this definition a person who commits suicide can be seen to be acting rationally if they have a reason for their action and an understanding of the consequences. And I don't think it's fair to say that they are irrational just because we may not agree with or understand their specific reason for choosing this route or simply because we might never be able to picture taking this route ourselves if we were faced with the same circumstances they are. Everyone has differing sensitivities, abilities to cope, and maybe most importantly, differing views on and willingness to face and accept death. For some, death is not the worst thing that can happen to them - in fact it must appear as a sort of relief or release - or at the very least, an escape, from whatever they perceive themselves to be suffering. And you know, some people just can't find any peace or enjoyment in living - and for those people, though it's very sad, and most of us would do whatever we could to help them feel differently, it might be the only way they will achieve some kind of rest and/or peace. In those circumstances, I think it's a totally rational act because they may even have hopes for or belief in an after life where things will be better for them.

2) Lacking usual or normal mental clarity or coherence: if you use this definition, I think many people can be viewed as being in an irrational state when they choose to commit suicide, since it usually occurs during a period of intense stress of one sort or another- such as facing the fact that one is homosexual in a world that is barely tolerant at best and openly hostile in many cases to people who are gay. I would think that for a lot of people in that situation, becoming cognizant of the reality of what this circumstance might mean in their individual situation in terms of family and other future relationships they may or may not ever have, could be extremely scary, disappointing (if they are someone who wants a family with children- not that it's impossible- but it's definitely harder), and sad- they may have had dreams of a "normal" life. Not to mention having to face the probable disapproval and disappointment of their families. Even the most tolerant mother or father usually has dreams of heterosexual children who will produce grandchildren. It must be terribly hard to have to feel that who or what you are is "wrong" in some way, and that the very fact of who or what you know yourself to be will be disappointing or hurtful to and /or rejected by those whom you love. And though I'm glad that most people learn to cope with whatever is thrown at them and soldier on, I can also understand why a person would want to do anything to escape being made to feel that way for the rest of his or her life.

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Quote:

A 1989 study published by the Department of Health and Human Services found that gay and lesbian youth are two to three times more likely to commit suicide that other youth, and 30% of all completed suicides are related to issues of sexual identity.5 The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force found that 41% of male adolescents seeking services at agencies for gay youth had attempted suicide, compared with 22% of their heterosexual counterparts at a shelter for runaways.
http://www3.georgetown.edu/be/article.cfm?ObjectID=521

From NIMH

Quote:

.C. Factors Associated with Increased Risk for Suicidal Behavior

No study examining putative risk factors for suicide has been able to adequately predict who will complete suicide (e.g., Porkorny, 1983). For this reason, most research examining "risk factors" associated with suicide are based on correlational studies (Linehan, 1999; Moscicki, 1999). Psychological autopsy studies of adults who have died by suicide indicate that mental and/or substance abuse disorders, including personality disorders, were present in at least 90 percent of decedents. Among young and middle-aged adults, previous suicide attempts, impulsive or aggressive tendencies, and stressful life events involving losses in financial, work or social areas are common risk factors; while for older suicides, a late onset of depression is most common (Conwell & Brent, 1995). Common risk factors in youth include prior suicide attempt, symptoms of a mood disorder, substance abuse that was frequently comorbid with a mood disorder (Shaffer & Craft, 1999), parental depression (Brent, Bridge, Johnson, & Connolly, 1996), and stressful life events (Brent, et al. 1993). With regard to risk for suicide attempts, risk factors for suicide completion, as well as comorbid personality disorders, particularly cluster B disorders (borderline, antisocial, histrionic), have been suggested (Brent & Poling, 1997). Risk factors for attempted suicide among youth include the same risk factors for completed suicide in youth, as well as a history of physical and sexual abuse (Fergusson et al., 1996; Kaplan et al., 1997). Homosexuality has also been shown to be correlated with suicide attempts among youth (Fergusson, Horwood, & Beautrais, 1999).
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/SuicideResearch/highrisksuicide.cfm

Other references and source (includes the 1999 Fergusson, et. al. study mentioned above.

Quote:

Social factors may make gay men suicidal

Homosexual men exhibit a higher-than-average rate of suicide attempts regardless of whether they suffer from depression or substance abuse.

References:

Bailey, J.M. 1999. Homosexuality and mental illness. Archives of General Psychiatry 56(October):883.

Ferguson, D.M., L.J. Horwood, and A.L. Beautrais. 1999. Is sexual orientation related to mental health problems and suicidality in young people? Archives of General Psychiatry 56(October):876.

Friedman, R.C. 1999. Homosexuality, psychopathology, and suicidality. Archives of General Psychiatry 56(October):887.

Herrell, R., et al. 1999. Sexual orientation and suicidality. Archives of General Psychiatry 56(October):867.

Remafedi, G. 1999. Suicide and sexual orientation. Archives of General Psychiatry 56(October):885.

Sources:

J. Michael Bailey
Northwestern University
Department of Psychology
2029 Sheridan Road
Evanston, IL 60208

David M. Ferguson
Christchurch School of Medicine
Christchurch Health and Development Study
P.O. Box 4345
Christchurch
New Zealand

Richard C. Friedman
Cornell University
Weill Medical College
Payne Whitney Clinic
New York Presbyterian Hospital
New York, NY 10021

Richard Herrell
University of Illinois, Chicago
School of Public Health
Division of Epidemiology and Biostatistics
2121 West Taylor Street
Mailstop code 922
Chicago, IL 60615

Gary Remafedi
University of Minnesota
Youth and AIDS Projects
428 Oak Grove Street
Minneapolis, MN 55403

From Science News, Vol. 156, No. 17, October 23, 1999, p. 261. Copyright © 1999, Science Service.

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One of the dirty little secrets of the pharma industry is that antidepressants , until a working titer is built up in the body, can induce suicide as a side effect.

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farmerman wrote:

One of the dirty little secrets of the pharma industry is that antidepressants , until a working titer is built up in the body, can induce suicide as a side effect.

Yeppers, ironic isn't it! When they put someone on them, the first thing they want to know is if you're getting suicidal thoughts!

Anon

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Great Info J_B,

Interesting reading, Thanks!

Anon

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farmerman wrote:

One of the dirty little secrets of the pharma industry is that antidepressants , until a working titer is built up in the body, can induce suicide as a side effect.

Yup! Half the kids these days are either on anti-depresants or Ritalin and if people continue to put their faith in psychologists, they're doomed.
These god damn psychologists are destroying these kids lives!

F@ckin drug pushers!

These greedy bastards will do anything to make a buck, even if it costs children their lives. They invent this disorder and that disorder just to get people in there to get their monthly prescriptions.
If every disorder actually existed, we'd all have several.

Parents don't even have a say anymore. If the schools or psychologists want their kids on drugs and the parents refuse, they are reported to child protection services and are acused of medical neglect.
I only know this because it happened to me Evil or Very Mad

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Interesting direction for the thread.

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Yeah, and sorry about that Embarrassed

It was Farmerman's fault Cool

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Montana wrote:

Yeah, and sorry about that

It was Farmerman's fault

Monrana,

There's no doubt that stuff like that is overused, however in many cases, it is a necessity.

Anon

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Why it is a "necessity" in "many cases"?

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Rethinking Homosexuality

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