39
   

Is homosexuality a bad thing?

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 05:01 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
but is he happy spain won the world cup?
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 05:13 am
@xris,
yes
si
ja
So am I. The Spanish deserved to win the Fair Play Price
0 Replies
 
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 06:51 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

stevecook172001 wrote:

What really casues me to piss myself laughing, though, is when I reflect on the fact if these religious looneys got their way, all homosexuality would be supressed. If we make the assumption, as the science seems to indicates, that homosexuality has a strong genetic component to it, then the supression of it will casue such individuals to go on to have unhappy heterosexual marriages where they have children. Children who will also inherit a behavioural tendency towards homosexuality.

Thus, by repressing homosexuality, organised religion actually serves to increase its prevelance.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/ZQg8JKo_3ZQ/0.jpg
THAT'S NOT HOW GENETICS WORKS!

So, tell me Joe

How does genetics work?
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 08:06 am
@xris,
I am happy too! I love Spain, someday I would love to visit Spain (I would never want to leave) Maybe on my gay honeymoon I will go there Smile
0 Replies
 
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:27 am
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001 wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

stevecook172001 wrote:

What really casues me to piss myself laughing, though, is when I reflect on the fact if these religious looneys got their way, all homosexuality would be supressed. If we make the assumption, as the science seems to indicates, that homosexuality has a strong genetic component to it, then the supression of it will casue such individuals to go on to have unhappy heterosexual marriages where they have children. Children who will also inherit a behavioural tendency towards homosexuality.

Thus, by repressing homosexuality, organised religion actually serves to increase its prevelance.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/ZQg8JKo_3ZQ/0.jpg
THAT'S NOT HOW GENETICS WORKS!

So, tell me Joe

How does genetics work?

Come on Joe....

You know you want to... Wink
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:30 am
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001 wrote:

stevecook172001 wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

stevecook172001 wrote:

What really casues me to piss myself laughing, though, is when I reflect on the fact if these religious looneys got their way, all homosexuality would be supressed. If we make the assumption, as the science seems to indicates, that homosexuality has a strong genetic component to it, then the supression of it will casue such individuals to go on to have unhappy heterosexual marriages where they have children. Children who will also inherit a behavioural tendency towards homosexuality.

Thus, by repressing homosexuality, organised religion actually serves to increase its prevelance.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/ZQg8JKo_3ZQ/0.jpg
THAT'S NOT HOW GENETICS WORKS!

So, tell me Joe

How does genetics work?

Come on Joe....

You know you want to... Wink

You do know how genetics works right?....

Because you wouldn't want to look like a cock as a consequence of asserting knowledge about something you know less about than you assert , would you Joe?...... Laughing

All of the above irrespective of whether homosexuality is or is not heritable to a greater of lesser degree, or even at all. The question you need to address, given your implied deep knowledge of genetics is how, if homosexuality is heritable to any degree, it's prevelance would not be affected one way or another via the reproductive mechanism I posited earlier.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:36 am
I am gonna throw my 2 cents into this discussion.

The question asked is is homosexuality a bad thing.
And the answer is maybe.

Now before anyone gets their panties in a twist, let me explain that.
If you were raised to believe its a bad thing, then it is.
And there is very little anyone can do to change your mind.

If you were raised that it isnt a bad thing, then it isnt.
And there is very little anyone can do to change your mind.
I was raised that it isnt a bad thing, and that while it may be considered "outside the norm" that doesnt mean anything.
As long as its between 2 or more consenting adults, its none of my business, nor should it be.
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:44 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

I am gonna throw my 2 cents into this discussion.

The question asked is is homosexuality a bad thing.
And the answer is maybe.

Now before anyone gets their panties in a twist, let me explain that.
If you were raised to believe its a bad thing, then it is.
And there is very little anyone can do to change your mind.

If you were raised that it isnt a bad thing, then it isnt.
And there is very little anyone can do to change your mind.
I was raised that it isnt a bad thing, and that while it may be considered "outside the norm" that doesnt mean anything.
As long as its between 2 or more consenting adults, its none of my business, nor should it be.

Yep. I'd pretty much go along with the last bit.

The bottom line is I couldn't give a monkeys and it it frankly startles me the number of religiously driven looneys on this site who come out with wierd bollocks about it.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 09:58 am
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001 wrote:
So, tell me Joe

How does genetics work?

Let's take a look at what you wrote. First, you state:

Quote:
If we make the assumption, as the science seems to indicates, that homosexuality has a strong genetic component to it, then the supression of it will casue such individuals to go on to have unhappy heterosexual marriages where they have children. Children who will also inherit a behavioural tendency towards homosexuality.

That assumes that homosexuals are only produced when one or both parents are homosexual. But we know that can't be true. Although it was true in the past that social pressures forced many closeted homosexuals into heterosexual unions, those pressures have eased in the past few decades, and so presumably fewer homosexuals are being pressured into getting married and having children. There has been at least one full generation to test out the theory, and so we should expect to see fewer homosexual youths today than in the past. Yet it appears that there has been no decline in the number of homosexual youths, or at least none that I'm aware of. So it can't be true that homosexuals are only being produced by closeted homosexuals.

Furthermore, it suggests that homosexual parents only have homosexual children, and we know that's not true either. If it were true, then homosexuals would only have homosexual siblings, and we know that's not the case. So saying that children who have one or two gay parent(s) "will also inherit a behavioral tendency towards homosexuality" shows a misunderstanding of genetics. Two blond-haired parents, after all, can still have a brown-haired child.

But perhaps you're assuming that homosexuality is like a genetic disease, where there are "carriers" of homosexuality who aren't actually homosexuals but who can pass on the "gay gene" to their offspring. We can compare homosexuality, then, to a disease like hemophilia, which is also a recessive gene passed on by non-hemophiliac carriers and which also inhibits reproduction, albeit for entirely different reasons. Indeed, it has only been recently that hemophiliacs have lived long enough to reproduce. Prior to the relatively recent advances in medicine, however, it was extremely rare for hemophiliacs to live into their 20s, so there weren't a lot of hemophiliacs getting married and having hemophiliac children. Nevertheless, hemophiliacs continued being born to parents who had recessive genes for hemophilia.

For the geneticist, it doesn't really matter if an inherited genetic condition kills someone before he/she can reproduce or causes that person to enter into affective relationship that is incapable of reproduction. The end result is the same: there's no passing the gene onto the next generation. That doesn't mean, however, that the condition disappears. If that were the case, then both hemophilia and homosexuality would have died out centuries ago, yet we know that's not true.

We can assume, then, based on the way the whole sex thing works and on the expressed affective preferences of gays and straights, that the primary producers of homosexual children are heterosexual parents, just as the primary producers of hemophiliac children are non-hemophiliac parents. So it's unlikely that forcing closeted homosexuals into heterosexual unions would increase the number of homosexual children to any large extent.

Furthermore, when you write:

Quote:
Thus, by repressing homosexuality, organised religion actually serves to increase its prevelance.

we know that can't be the case. First, on a purely factual basis, it assumes that closeted homosexuals would prefer to enter into heterosexual unions rather than choose some other method of dealing with societal pressures. Second, it assumes that homosexuals, once in those unions, would actually have children, which, given their preference for homosexual sex, seems rather counter-intuitive at best. Third, if societal repression causes closeted homosexuals into heterosexual unions where they produce homosexual children, then we should be seeing a lot fewer homosexuals once those societal strictures are eased, yet we have seen those strictures loosened in the past two decades without any corresponding decrease in the gay population.
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 10:07 am
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001 wrote:
Because you wouldn't want to look like a cock as a consequence of asserting knowledge about something you know less about than you assert , would you Joe?...... Laughing

I'm sorry that my reply was so tardy that you found it necessary to post twice to taunt me about the lack of my reply. You should be aware that, from the time you asked me to explain genetics to the time I posted my reply was a little over three hours. In that time, in addition to writing my reply I also had to get up, shower, eat breakfast, do a load of laundry, and take the train into work. In the future I'll try to curtail all of these non-essential life activities so that I can attend to your posts more promptly. Right now, however, all I can offer is my sincerest apologies.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:09 am
yup, looks sincere to me! Laughing
0 Replies
 
stevecook172001
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 11:51 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

stevecook172001 wrote:
So, tell me Joe

How does genetics work?

Let's take a look at what you wrote. First, you state:

Quote:
If we make the assumption, as the science seems to indicates, that homosexuality has a strong genetic component to it, then the supression of it will casue such individuals to go on to have unhappy heterosexual marriages where they have children. Children who will also inherit a behavioural tendency towards homosexuality.

That assumes that homosexuals are only produced when one or both parents are homosexual. But we know that can't be true. Although it was true in the past that social pressures forced many closeted homosexuals into heterosexual unions, those pressures have eased in the past few decades, and so presumably fewer homosexuals are being pressured into getting married and having children. There has been at least one full generation to test out the theory, and so we should expect to see fewer homosexual youths today than in the past. Yet it appears that there has been no decline in the number of homosexual youths, or at least none that I'm aware of. So it can't be true that homosexuals are only being produced by closeted homosexuals.

Furthermore, it suggests that homosexual parents only have homosexual children, and we know that's not true either. If it were true, then homosexuals would only have homosexual siblings, and we know that's not the case. So saying that children who have one or two gay parent(s) "will also inherit a behavioral tendency towards homosexuality" shows a misunderstanding of genetics. Two blond-haired parents, after all, can still have a brown-haired child.

But perhaps you're assuming that homosexuality is like a genetic disease, where there are "carriers" of homosexuality who aren't actually homosexuals but who can pass on the "gay gene" to their offspring. We can compare homosexuality, then, to a disease like hemophilia, which is also a recessive gene passed on by non-hemophiliac carriers and which also inhibits reproduction, albeit for entirely different reasons. Indeed, it has only been recently that hemophiliacs have lived long enough to reproduce. Prior to the relatively recent advances in medicine, however, it was extremely rare for hemophiliacs to live into their 20s, so there weren't a lot of hemophiliacs getting married and having hemophiliac children. Nevertheless, hemophiliacs continued being born to parents who had recessive genes for hemophilia.

For the geneticist, it doesn't really matter if an inherited genetic condition kills someone before he/she can reproduce or causes that person to enter into affective relationship that is incapable of reproduction. The end result is the same: there's no passing the gene onto the next generation. That doesn't mean, however, that the condition disappears. If that were the case, then both hemophilia and homosexuality would have died out centuries ago, yet we know that's not true.

We can assume, then, based on the way the whole sex thing works and on the expressed affective preferences of gays and straights, that the primary producers of homosexual children are heterosexual parents, just as the primary producers of hemophiliac children are non-hemophiliac parents. So it's unlikely that forcing closeted homosexuals into heterosexual unions would increase the number of homosexual children to any large extent.

Furthermore, when you write:

Quote:
Thus, by repressing homosexuality, organised religion actually serves to increase its prevelance.

we know that can't be the case. First, on a purely factual basis, it assumes that closeted homosexuals would prefer to enter into heterosexual unions rather than choose some other method of dealing with societal pressures. Second, it assumes that homosexuals, once in those unions, would actually have children, which, given their preference for homosexual sex, seems rather counter-intuitive at best. Third, if societal repression causes closeted homosexuals into heterosexual unions where they produce homosexual children, then we should be seeing a lot fewer homosexuals once those societal strictures are eased, yet we have seen those strictures loosened in the past two decades without any corresponding decrease in the gay population.

Wow, long response.

Totally missing the point of course.

Allow me to rephrase...

Do you accept that is is entirely plausable that homosexuality has a heritable component?

If the answer to the abvoe question is "yes". Then the precise genetic details of how such a genetic predisposition is carried forward is a second order detail.

Either it will be dominant in whch case the offspring will be likely to have it phenotypically present, even if not necessarily culturally expressed. Or, it will be recessive, in which case they will only carry it forward unless inhertied in double dose.

In any event, as I am sure you will appreciate, if homosexuality is partially genetically explained, then at an individual level, there will be a whole host of variables particular to the individual that will affect any behavioural outcome in a particular way. Nontheless, at the population level, such localised variables get smoothed out and larger, population level patterns become visible.

The central point is this. If one accepts that homosexuality is at least partially heritable and if one futher accepts that people with a genetic predisposition to a having greater likelihood of behaviourally expressing homosexual preferences were otherwise culturally forced into heterosexual unions in the past, then the inevitable genetic outcome can only have been that hertitable traits for homnosexual behavioural preferences were passed on in greater numbers than would be have been the case in cultures where homosexual behavioural preferences were not culturally suppressed.

As for your point about greater number of homosexuals in the modern world being evidence of there not being a heritable component futher serves to underline your missing the point and the subtleties of the question.

So, do you assert that homosexuality is entirely non-heritable? This would at least provie a logical underpinning to your assertion.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 12:38 pm
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001 wrote:
Wow, long response.

Next time I'll use shorter words. I'm sure you'll appreciate that.

stevecook172001 wrote:
Do you accept that is is entirely plausable that homosexuality has a heritable component?

It very well could.

stevecook172001 wrote:
If the answer to the abvoe question is "yes". Then the precise genetic details of how such a genetic predisposition is carried forward is a second order detail.

To you it might be.

stevecook172001 wrote:
Either it will be dominant in whch case the offspring will be likely to have it phenotypically present, even if not necessarily culturally expressed. Or, it will be recessive, in which case they will only carry it forward unless inhertied in double dose.

I'm not sure I understand the notion of something that is genetically inherited being "culturally expressed."

stevecook172001 wrote:
The central point is this. If one accepts that homosexuality is at least partially heritable and if one futher accepts that people with a genetic predisposition to a having greater likelihood of behaviourally expressing homosexual preferences were otherwise culturally forced into heterosexual unions in the past, then the inevitable genetic outcome can only have been that hertitable traits for homnosexual behavioural preferences were passed on in greater numbers than would be have been the case in cultures where homosexual behavioural preferences were not culturally suppressed.

And once those cultural strictures were removed, we'd see a decline in the homosexual population. But we haven't.

stevecook172001 wrote:
As for your point about greater number of homosexuals in the modern world being evidence of there not being a heritable component futher serves to underline your missing the point and the subtleties of the question.

I never said there was a greater number of homosexuals in the modern world, so I guess that must mean you missed my point.

stevecook172001 wrote:
So, do you assert that homosexuality is entirely non-heritable? This would at least provie a logical underpinning to your assertion.

I don't know enough about the subject to express an opinion one way or another. For the purposes of this discussion, however, I'm perfectly willing to concede that homosexuality is inheritable.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:25 pm
Heterosexuals make homosexuals. Most all women are bisexual and many if not most all men are bisexual also. Well when the recessive genes are doubled in both parents the chance of a gay person begin born goes up.
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:30 pm
@moogly bear,
moogly bear wrote:

I don't think so, but I'm never really understood why people hate it so much, so I'm wondering if anyone can justify their opinions through logic.


I don't like it

but genetics and the eviroment do what they do

phyisologically and psychologically
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:40 pm
What do you refer toooooooo>O<
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:41 pm
@xris,
Latin America is Happy @ 2
0 Replies
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:44 pm
Wilhelmus van Nassaue Ben Ich Von Duit$e Blood
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 01:59 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep wrote:

What do you refer toooooooo>O<


why write in codes , don't get the purpose of ..
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Jul, 2010 03:08 pm
@RexRed,
Where on earth do you get the notion most all women are bisexual?
 

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