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Is homosexuality a bad thing?

 
 
dev56
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Mar, 2006 09:11 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:


There are many men who are fearful of the state of their own sexuality. Those are the ones who are the "gay bashers". Secure, mature people are not threatened by another person's lifestyle.


I agree 100%. If I could just elaborate a little.

I think that most of the prejudice against homosexulality begin, at least for men, at early adolescence, just starting high school. I can remember that in high school one of the things I feared most was being called a 'fag' (sorry for the word but thats what they would say). I would have probably rather been called anything else. it is not that I had any feelings about homosexuality one way or the other. I just knew that if someone called you that, and someone else believed it, it could mean social death. In fact I think that this is most young men's introduction to homosexuality, as something negative, a label you don't want.
So what do you do in a situation like that, you make jokes, tell everyone how much you hate gays, and that that sort of thing disgusts you. Who could possibly label someone as gay who thinks and talks like that.
There is also a lot of payoff in terms of 'being one of the guys', it may seem silly, but to a teenager it is very important.
It's a bad habit and one that is hard to break. Even now that I am 'all grown up' I still sometimes catch myself thinking or saying " I don't want to do that. they will think I am gay", and I have nothing against homosexuals at all (I never really did).

I think if we want to end this awful prejudice once and for all, we will have to teach boys from a young age that sex is not just something that a mommy and a daddy do, or even a man and a woman. But that it is also something that some men do with men, some women do with women, and sometimes what a man does with his livestock. Ok maybe not the livestock. Then the first time they hear about homosexuality it wont be as something dirty or wrong but just something. It also wouldn't hurt to stop telling them that somethings are 'unmanly' or effeminate, let them decide for themselves.

As for adults who want to rid themselves of this habit. I think a little self reflection would not hurt. We all know how difficult and often frightening sex, love, dating can be. Now imagine that not only do you have to deal with the normal anxieties of rejection and not knowing just what to say. But for a gay man he also has to worry about social censure and in some cases if he makes a pass a non gay man, possible violence. It must take some real courage to face all that, and still find someone to love. And if courage is not considered a classical 'manly' virtue I don't know what is.

as for myself I think the final step may be to put on a pride t-shirt and go out there and march in the the next gay parade. If someone thinks that I am gay then fine. If someone calls me a fag, I'll just say "no I am not, but some of these guys are". I will probably chicken out and not go, old habits die hard. But if you are braver than me, give it a try. There is nothing wrong with marching in solidarity with your fellow man or woman for that matter. Just make sure to tell your new friends there that you didn't come here looking for men, it could save you from some awkward situations and heartbreak.

Finally if nothing else you could always fall back on the old tried and true "well at least they aren't hurting anyone" but tolerance is a poor substitute for understanding. But at least you won't be hurting anyone.
0 Replies
 
Drowned By Darkness
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Mar, 2006 09:53 pm
I think it depends on how you view it. It is more of an opinion, than a statement, or a fact. Maybe some homosexuals think that it is bad to be that way, maybe some people (non) believe that it is good to have variety.
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RaceDriver205
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Mar, 2006 06:20 am
Quote:
There are many men who are fearful of the state of their own sexuality. Those are the ones who are the "gay bashers". Secure, mature people are not threatened by another person's lifestyle.

I disagree about 80%. I could elaborate to some degree.

I think hot chicks are in fact hot. I do in fact 'fancy' them and this is not just a self-assertation im afraid-i-might-be-gay ill just convince my self i fancy them mumbo jumbo physcotic crap. (I think i made my point).
In addition to this i find gay people wierd and unpleasant to be around. Not just for the fact that they are men who want to screw other men as if that wasnt wierd enough. But for other things such as the wierd feminine way they move and act and talk. It is very disconcerting wierd and unpleasant. My mate (who is very into girls and chasing them etc) uses 'thats gay' 'dont be gay' frequently, and (as is popular here in australia) cracks jokes about doing gay things to other people. The idea that he is just doing these things coz hes afraid he might be gay is HORSE SH~T. People know if there gay because when they look at two men kissing or naked men etc they feel repulsed, and when they see hot chicks they feel aroused.
ITS NOT THAT HARD you know.
I do not feel threatened by gay peoples lifestyle, but i do object strongly to being any where near it. I dont hate wierdos but I dont want them anywhere near me thanks.
0 Replies
 
tagged lyricist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 12 Mar, 2006 06:52 pm
I think that at least in most Christian run countries you can be gay it's allowed; come to africa baby where it's illegal in many countries or very much shunnedl and you can be stoned, why's is it so detested here? there's no old testament to give them that judo-Christian belief thing you go on about? Trust me in most tribal belief systems (including the ones in liberal South africa) you can be thrown out of the society for being gay or killed it's just a complete no no.

Now I won't talk about what may happen to a gay man in a muslim country (a gay women can't exist that but that's for other darker reasons) and the only country run by jews-israel- you certaintly won't be cast out by society for being homosexual (maybe mom and dad will have a problem but the government wont). So yes there are fundamentalist jews and christians who have issues with homosexuality but in general the homo's are better off in the west.
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RaceDriver205
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 04:10 am
Amen
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 06:58 am
RaceDriver205 wrote:
In addition to this i find gay people wierd and unpleasant to be around. Not just for the fact that they are men who want to screw other men as if that wasnt weird enough. But for other things such as the wierd feminine way they move and act and talk.


That sounds very prejudiced. If you were to sit right next to me, you wouldn't know I was gay. Most people are surprised to find out I'm gay, because I don't talk effeminately and I don't move or act effeminately.

You find men screwing other men weird? Fair enough. That I can possibly understand. However, the effeminate thing is a stereotype of unbelievable proportions.

Quote:
It is very disconcerting wierd and unpleasant. My mate (who is very into girls and chasing them etc) cracks jokes about doing gay things to other people.


Yes, I do that too. So what?

Quote:
People know if there gay because when they look at two men kissing or naked men etc they feel repulsed, and when they see hot chicks they feel aroused.


Yet there also those that are real homophobes, who have this bizarre fascination with homosexuality, like Fred Phelps. It's bizarre. A study by Kinsey (I think that's his name) showed that some of the most homophobic bigots were actually found to be aroused by homosexual pornography.

And that is where I think Mr. dev56 got his contention from.

Quote:
ITS NOT THAT HARD you know.


Tell me, is that double-entendre intentional or not?

Quote:
I do not feel threatened by gay peoples lifestyle, but i do object strongly to being any where near it. I dont hate wierdos but I dont want them anywhere near me thanks.


And I object strongly to being called a weirdo, which although isn't a homophobic act per se, isn't a very polite or nice one.
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RaceDriver205
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 04:57 pm
To clarify (and this wasnt clear), the remark about wierdos was a separate example (gays are weirdos was not meant to be implied).

While you may not be effeminate, whenever I have seen men who actually claim to be gay, they act in this feminine manner, and men I suspect to be gay act in this manner also. Im sure there are exceptions.

Quote:
Quote:
It is very disconcerting wierd and unpleasant. My mate (who is very into girls and chasing them etc) cracks jokes about doing gay things to other people.


Yes, I do that too. So what?


You took that out of context.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 05:11 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Prejudice of any sort can never be explained by logic. That is what the hatred of homosexuality is................just another form of prejudice. Some people couch their disapproval by quoting the bible. Then again, there are many differences of opinion as to who wrote the bible, and even if it is relevent today.

There are many men who are fearful of the state of their own sexuality. Those are the ones who are the "gay bashers". Secure, mature people are not threatened by another person's lifestyle.
I could contest that view on an instinctual societal protective basis. I think it would be fair to say that there would an inherent logic in early hominoid tribal affairs by having suspicion/fear of strangers/strangeness. This may well have carried down through the ages and now most often manifests itself negatively.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 05:21 pm
What I wonder, though, is why homosexuality was so "in" with the Greeks-- mandatory for Spartans...? When did that change?

I really think it was religion.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 05:24 pm
Chumly- First, I do not believe that human have "instincts".

Quote:
in┬Ěstinct (ĭn'stĭngkt')
n.
An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli:


I go along that early man might very well have had a fear of strangers, and people who are "different", but that would be a predisposition, and not an instinct, which is behavior that is fixed. In fact, you see that prediliction in the behavior of those cultures with strong tribal affinities.

Even given that the fear and dislike of "differentness" may have had a protective benefit to human beings, the fact remains, that modern humans have supposedly overcome many of their earlier evolutionary adaptations. With the growth of the cerebrum, human beings have developed the ability to think and reason, therefore nullifying the possible advantage of the tribal mentality.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 05:26 pm
It seems clear enough (to my feeble brain anyway) that societal norms can overpower the early hominoid genetic programming of suspicion/fear of strangers/strangeness.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 05:29 pm
Chumly wrote:
It seems clear enough (to my feeble brain anyway) that societal norms can overpower the early hominoid genetic programming of suspicion/fear of strangers/strangeness.


Sure it can. We see it amongst humans in all cultures, to one extent or another. The point is, that it is NOT an instinct, and human beings have the power to choose as to whether they will allow themselves to get caught up in a prejudicial manner of thinking.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 05:59 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Chumly- First, I do not believe that human have "instincts".
None, nada? How about suckling? How about the mating instinct? How about the collective societal instinct? How about the bonding instinct?
Phoenix32890 wrote:
I go along that early man might very well have had a fear of strangers, and people who are "different", but that would be a predisposition, and not an instinct, which is behavior that is fixed. In fact, you see that prediliction in the behavior of those cultures with strong tribal affinities.

Even given that the fear and dislike of "differentness" may have had a protective benefit to human beings, the fact remains, that modern humans have supposedly overcome many of their earlier evolutionary adaptations. With the growth of the cerebrum, human beings have developed the ability to think and reason, therefore nullifying the possible advantage of the tribal mentality.
Because instinctual behavior is fixed (well it is not really but for one individual it would be) and potentially specific to stimuli is not an argument instinctual behavior does not exist in Homo Sapiens.

Because instinctual behavior is fixed and potentially specific to stimuli, it does not mean instinctual behavior cannot be overcome/suppressed/superceded/veneered by learned response. But it is the old argument of nature versus nurture.

Given the long and bloody history of bigotry and prejudice, self-destruction and bloodshed, I am not at all convinced that in cases at all times "human beings have developed the ability to think and reason" and that the destructive components of instinct have been relegated to dusty curios.

Lots of fun and does address the instinctual inference to free willy Exclamation
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flushd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 06:08 pm
We all need enemies.

Some just can't see that 'enemies' or 'others' or 'strangers' serve a valuable function.

There is no clear 'enemy' for many people. It's a fractured, crazy soceity. So some folks decide to hate, or are taught to hate: homosexuals, someone who looks like a homosexual, someone with a slightly larger nose, someone with darker skin, whatever.

That's my explanation, anyhoo.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Mar, 2006 06:17 pm
Oh, there have been studies about that and stuff. That people bond when there is a common enemy. I think it's very true. (I think Bush has taken that concept and run with it, for example...)
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Ray
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:23 am
Quote:
What I wonder, though, is why homosexuality was so "in" with the Greeks-- mandatory for Spartans...? When did that change?

I really think it was religion.


I've read somewhere that it might've been to enhanced soldier's loyalty to one another, and you know make them fight more fiercely. There was this famous Greek group, I forgot what it's called, but they were homosexuals.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:32 am
Ray wrote:
There was this famous Greek group, I forgot what it's called, but they were homosexuals.
Queen?

Oh ****, they were Brits.

Yanni? He's Greek!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 01:51 am
Actually, homosexuality in antique Greece is mostly "connected" to Athens and not Sparta.

(see e.g.: Greek Homosexuality, by Kenneth J. Dover, New York, 1978)



I can't remember any Greek group.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 04:51 am
RaceDriver205 wrote:
To clarify (and this wasnt clear), the remark about wierdos was a separate example (gays are weirdos was not meant to be implied).

While you may not be effeminate, whenever I have seen men who actually claim to be gay, they act in this feminine manner, and men I suspect to be gay act in this manner also. Im sure there are exceptions.


So, you're saying they're weirdoes? Still kinda offensive, don't you think? (If not to me, to them at least).

Quote:
You took that out of context.


Yes, but my answer was in context. I was merely saying, so what? Those examples don't prove anything except that your friend does those things.

Never mind, though. I get what you're saying.

Walter Hinteler wrote:
Actually, homosexuality in antique Greece is mostly "connected" to Athens and not Sparta.

(see e.g.: Greek Homosexuality, by Kenneth J. Dover, New York, 1978)

I can't remember any Greek group.


Yes, but homosexuality was just as common in Sparta. Also, the Spartans were apparently very hot on women's rights (or at least, their rights to own land).
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Wilso
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Mar, 2006 05:12 am
sozobe wrote:
Oh, there have been studies about that and stuff. That people bond when there is a common enemy. I think it's very true. (I think Bush has taken that concept and run with it, for example...)


So did Adolf!
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