Soldiers are saying - "Get us Outta Here!"

sure. polls can be fitted to produce whatever results are wanted.

i tend to compare them against what i hear the average joe/josie say and see where it falls out.

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DTOM, Polls and average joe/jane opinions all depend on several things - one important one being the political inclination of the one being polled. Random large numbers across a good cross-section of political leanings would be good, but not perfect.

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mele,

Jerry Springer? Are you talking about THAT Jerry Springers?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

DTOM, Polls and average joe/jane opinions all depend on several things - one important one being the political inclination of the one being polled. Random large numbers across a good cross-section of political leanings would be good, but not perfect.

true. and interpretation of the results as well. political leaning that is.

here's one that can be misleading, depending;

polls show that 71% believe that the country is headed in the wrong direction. (this is a made up #, btw).

to determine what the % really means, you need to ask follow up questions. such as;

"when you think about the direction the country is headed, is it becoming;

a) too liberal
b) too conservative ".

so what i'm getting at, is that remember when that kind of poll came out in the last election cycle ? a lot of people i knew were running around believing that the majority of people wanted to oust bush. and a lot did. not quite enough to do it.

because....

a lot of conservatives also thought the country was going in the wrong direction. but for opposite reasons.

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You are partly correct, Don'tTread. However, you have, in my opinion, missed some very important points. I have confidence in their viablity but if you have strong evidence that they are not correct, please enlighten me.

l. Reliable experienced professional Pollsters like the famous George Gallup have written extensively on the exactness of a measurement done in a well conducted poll. For a masterful presentation go to

www.gallup.com

and look for the topic--Yes, Polling works.

2. Some, especially when a poll gives a result with which they disagree say that polls are useless and biased( good ones are not- See Gallup above)

3. Politicians spend thousands of dollars on polls.They must believe in thier accuracy

and 4. and most important-

See Shadow byBob Woodward.P. 336

quote

"At one point, Clinton says that as a practical matter the country didn't have elections any more. What they had were photographs of public opinion polls, a kind of over-the-counter market quotation of the polls in an ongoing partisan war that would last all four years. The numbers in those polls were the most important numbers in the world for Clinton."

When the most brilliant policy wonk of the last hundred years defines polls in that way, who can doubt him?????

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While Bushophobe, America-Worst pundits, pollsters, and presstitutes say one thing, US military recruitment and retention says something entirely different; it remains historically robust[/i][/b] even in the face of unusually low unemployment and an expanding gap between military and civil-sector wages.

Meanwhile, contrary to the lies of such as Congressman Charley Rangel (D, Peoples' Democratic Republic of New York City), the military continues to attract "America's Best and Brightest". While only 75% of the general population of military-aged youth in the nation are highschool graduates, nearly 1005 of those applying to the military have that credential. Two-thirds of today's recruits score in the top half of American youth in math and verbal aptitudes. Socio-economically, today's recruit is far more likely to have a middle-class background, and to come from a suburban or rural family, than to have a lower-income, inner-city background. In fact, the lower economic strata are significantly under-represented among today's enlistees, as are urban areas in general.

African-Americans in particular stand out as being disproportionately less likely to enlist than their Caucasian contemporaries. Interestingly, while African-Americans comprise approximately 17% of the forces deployed to the war zone, that demographic accounts for only 11% of the casualties, while Caucasians comprise 67% of the force structure and tally 74% of the casualty count. Another interesting, though unrelated, set of statistics show that the leading physical cause of ineligibility for enlistment is obesity, while a criminal record all but precludes enlistment. Today's all-volunteer American Military reflects the finest America's youth has to offer.
SOURCE (Note: 4-page pdf. document)

Its no secret that Zogby is anti-Bush, anti-war, and its no secret the poll in question was commisioned by (in Zogby's own words) "a gentleman who is a very wealthy individual who is anti-war"
SOURCE (Note: an amusing 2.26 MB mp3 audio file - during which Zogby whiffles, waffles, evades, and finally just quits the discussion).

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This describes disquiet among allies about the disastrous unpreparedness in Iraq, and why we have got to where we are.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1730427,00.html

Diplomatic correspondence made public.

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Just curious, timber - if the stats about soldiers disapproval of this war were done by an outfit you considered unbiased, would that affect the degree to which you took their opinions seriously? Seeing as the soldiers are the "best and brightest", and all?

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Good question, snood. It's one of those, you can't have it both ways kind of question. Wink

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timberlandko wrote:

While Bushophobe, America-Worst pundits, pollsters, and presstitutes say one thing, US military recruitment and retention says something entirely different; it remains historically robust[/i][/b] even in the face of unusually low unemployment and an expanding gap between military and civil-sector wages.

Historically robust? Not so much ... until

Quote:

With more than 2,200 dead and 16,700 wounded, and a large percentage of Americans disapproving of the war in Iraq, the US military is struggling to meet its recruiting goals. With little fanfare, the Army has eased enlistment restrictions, allowing soldiers previously considered too heavy, too old, too sickly, or too uneducated to head off to basic training.

In January, the enlistment age for active-duty Army recruits was raised from 35 to 40. Late last year, a key drug test for recent use of marijuana was softened. Last fall, a high school equivalency program was put in place for high school dropouts. And last spring, a ban on childhood asthmatics was removed.

But in a country where the rate of teenage obesity climbed from 5 percent to 16 percent over the last 30 years, perhaps the most significant revision is a loophole that allows recruits who are too heavy to meet weight or body fat limits to take the fitness test anyway.

link ... if you were an Abuzz poster, your old e-ddress and password work

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He's got guts. Lots and lots.

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snood wrote:

Just curious, timber - if the stats about soldiers disapproval of this war were done by an outfit you considered unbiased, would that affect the degree to which you took their opinions seriously? Seeing as the soldiers are the "best and brightest", and all?

The quality of the respondants is not at issue.

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timberlandko wrote:

snood wrote:
Just curious, timber - if the stats about soldiers disapproval of this war were done by an outfit you considered unbiased, would that affect the degree to which you took their opinions seriously? Seeing as the soldiers are the "best and brightest", and all?

The quality of the respondants is not at issue.

Sure it is. If it wasn't, why'd you bring it up? The quality of the respondents, and how seriously should their misgivings be taken; the quality of the poll and how seriously should the results be taken are all very central to this thread.

Some have already gone on record (you were one I believe) who said it really was immaterial what they said regarding not wanting to be there, because 'all soldiers' would want to leave after being at war for a given time.

I started this thread simply to state that a lot, maybe even most, soldiers in Iraq no longer agree with their leadership about staying, and that their opinion aligns with most of Americans now. Several have posted to say, in one way or another that the poll wasn't valid, or that the respondents opinions didn't carry much gravitas, or some combination of those two things.

Let me restate it, then - most soldiers don't agree with being there anymore, and that sentiment aligns exactly with most Americans in general. All the equivocating about the pollsters or whether the respondents should be taken seriously seem to me to be purposely missing the forest in examination of the trees.

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snood,
Be honest.
Most of the soldiers ASKED say they wanted to leave,but were ALL the soldiers in Iraq asked?

You are correct if you said most of the ones aasked,but you know as well as I do that not every soldier was asked.

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mysteryman wrote:

snood,
Be honest.
Most of the soldiers ASKED say they wanted to leave,but were ALL the soldiers in Iraq asked?

You are correct if you said most of the ones aasked,but you know as well as I do that not every soldier was asked.

What poll are you aware of in which every member of a population was polled? Isn't it a representation of a population, by definition? Why can't you guys even deal with the notion that the soldiers want outta there? Are you of the opinion that the polls showing similar sentiments among Americans in general aren't "honest"?

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snood, People always ask for the ridiculous when they can't support their position. Their mind-set is calcified to believe in only one thing; their's. It doesn't matter squat any evidence presented.

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Well, it wasn't just the soldiers deployed in Iraq, it wasn't just the Americans polled dozens of times in increasing numbers saying they'd had enough, it wasn't just Jack Murtha the Democratic war hero, it was also one of their foremost thinkers - William Buckley- who said that the inescapable conclusion was that Bush's objectives in Iraq had failed.

FAILED.

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And since apparently neither one of you read my earlier post,I will repeat it,just for you...

I don't know what soldiers were asked the survey,but I do know this.

If you put me,a trained combat medic,into a situation where I am pushing papers,then I would also say I want out.
Soldiers are not trained to be policemen,nor are we trained as social workers.
A soldiers job is to kill people and break things.

When you put a combat soldier into any other role besides what he is trained for,he is going to want out.

So,knowing that,I am a little skeptical of the survey,because I don't know who was asked or what they were doing at the time.
That will make a difference in the results.

Now,I am also willing to bet that I could have done the same poll during WW2,which seems to be the last war the left finds honorable,and gotten the same results.

Soldiers are ALWAYS bitching about something,its when they aren't bitching that you have a problem.

Now,since we have combat troops doing everything except what they are trained to do,of course they are gonna bitch.
Soldiers are not trained to be cops,social workers,meals on wheels programs,govt officials,mediators,or anything else.
They are trained to kill people and break things.

So,when you put a combat soldier as a social worker,of course he is gonna bitch and want out.

So,I wouldn't put to much stock in that poll,unless those asked were doing the job they were trained to do.
And we will never know if thats the case or not.

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Neocon Francis Fukuyama also said the same thing; unfortunately for republicans, they still don't get the message the war is lost.

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March 14, 2006
Reprisal Killings Leave at Least 85 Dead in Baghdad

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Soldiers are saying - "Get us Outta Here!"

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