A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

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sozobe wrote:

You called?

Kelticwizard, I know what you're saying, but I'm no fan of Giuliani and can see his appeal. It's that outsider/ own man thing Lash refers to. I mean, the drag! The attitude! People like the idea that he won't bow to any master.

He's stiff and has a halting speech manner. The power freak part gets realized later.

How much have you actually gotten a chance to see or listen to this guy speak? I have, quite a lot. He really cannot put up a likable public display. It will wear on the electorate quickly, unless the electorate happens to be in New York and doesn't care if a guy is a power freak if he can do something about the five murders daily.

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Hey. There are at leat five murders daily in DC. Maybe we're saved!

Very Happy

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His record in NY is amazing. I experienced 42nd St. pre-Giuliani and it is one of the truly incredible turn-arounds of our time. Can't? Whatever... he did. That coupled with the FACT he's nobody's puppet is attractive to this small town Wisconsin boy, believe it.

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Here's a fine question to put to each of the prospective nominees..." what do you think of the recent Canadian SC 9-0 ruling?"

Quote:

The Canadian justices rejected their government's specious national security claim with a forceful 9-to-0 ruling that upheld every person's right to fair treatment. "The overarching principle of fundamental justice that applies here is this: before the state can detain people for significant periods of time, it must accord them a fair judicial process," Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin wrote.

The contrast with the United States could not be more disturbing. The Canadian court ruling came just days after a federal appeals court in Washington ruled that Congress could deny inmates of the Guantánamo Bay detention camp the ancient right to challenge their confinement in court. The 2006 military tribunals law revoked that right for a select group who had been designated "illegal enemy combatants" without a semblance of judicial process.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/27/opinion/27tue1.html

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kelticwizard wrote:

sozobe wrote:
You called?

Kelticwizard, I know what you're saying, but I'm no fan of Giuliani and can see his appeal. It's that outsider/ own man thing Lash refers to. I mean, the drag! The attitude! People like the idea that he won't bow to any master.

He's stiff and has a halting speech manner. The power freak part gets realized later.

How much have you actually gotten a chance to see or listen to this guy speak? I have, quite a lot. He really cannot put up a likable public display. It will wear on the electorate quickly, unless the electorate happens to be in New York and doesn't care if a guy is a power freak if he can do something about the five murders daily.

I've seen the guy, I know what you mean. (And again, I'm not a fan.) I just think that it doesn't necessarily cancel out what people like about him. That whole non-slick, non-practiced, non-typical-politician thing. Being hunched and orange and making pinchy faces can easily be PART of his appeal, part of the whole "yeah yeah yeah I know what I'm supposed to do but I ain't gonna" thing.

Again, a) I'm not a fan, b) I don't think his chances are so great. But I don't think that aspect (elctorate won't like him 'cause he don't speak good) is as simple as you describe it.

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I'm almost getting a sense here that Sozobe is not a fan of Giuliani.

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I want another Reagan who had ALL the lovable qualities of an Obama and all the admirable qualities of a Guiliani and incorporated the best of all the others. He of course was not perfect nor a saint and he was as hated by one sector of society as he was loved by another.

So far nobody, not the Dems nor the GOP, has put up anybody comparable. But among the current crop of contenders, Guliani comes the closest and if I had to vote today, he would get my vote.

A lot can happen in a little less than two years, however, and I'm not counting on anything being a done deal yet.

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Thomas wrote:

I'm almost getting a sense here that Sozobe is not a fan of Giuliani.

Getting a little repetitive there, wasn't I?

Can I just say I wasn't a fan of Reagan, either?

I think I'm done.

For now.

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sozobe wrote:

Thomas wrote:
I'm almost getting a sense here that Sozobe is not a fan of Giuliani.

Getting a little repetitive there, wasn't I?

Can I just say I wasn't a fan of Reagan, either?

I think I'm done.

For now.

Reagan? All sound and noise.

He impressed the simple-minded, and looked pretty enough for everyone else to ignore the fact that he was screwing the country up royally.

Any objective viewing of his presidency reveals that he was not one of our finest, by a long shot.

Cycloptichorn

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Thomas wrote:

I'm almost getting a sense here that Sozobe is not a fan of Giuliani.

LOL.

What I think Soz is trying to emphasize, though, is that she is from the Midwest and that she thinks Midwesterners and other non-New Yorkers can accept Giuliani's lack of charisma, considering his accomplishments. and emphasizing that she is hardly a star struck follower herself.

I tend to disagree, but I guess we are about to find out, one way or the other.

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A little bit more than that.

I think there are people who are downright suspicious of "charisma", and find Giuliani's lack thereof to be a selling point.

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The only thing Reagan ever did right was the poker game he played with the Soviets; pressing them and not backing down until they'd totally crumbled. It was a hell of a gamble, creating a very dangerous situation for a while, but it worked - forcing the Soviets to spend more on defence than they could afford and thus exacerbating the weaknesses in the system that eventually made it collapse. Another man would have settled halfway.

Not that the Uzbeks, Kazakhs or Belorussians - or even the Russians themselves - are any better off now than they would have been in a half-reformed, Gorbachevian Soviet Union.. <shrugs>. But the people in Central and Eastern Europe (the Balts especially) would have been, civic protest movements and reform communists or no, so kudos for Reagan's part in the course of events.

But otherwise I cant think of a single positive contribution Reagan made, either domestically or internationally.

Thats all off-topic though.

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Foxfyre wrote:

He of course was not perfect nor a saint and he was as hated by one sector of society as he was loved by another.

I don't know that it was necessarily one or the other. I was never a big Reagan fan, but I didn't hate him either. I don't recall exactly, but I probably voted Libertarian those years because I didn't feel compelled to vote against either candidate.

I agree with those who would answer Giuliani to the the question, "If election day was tomorrow..." but I no idea what my answer will be 18 months from now.

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nimh wrote:

The only thing Reagan ever did right was the poker game he played with the Soviets; pressing them and not backing down until they'd totally crumbled. It was a hell of a gamble, creating a very dangerous situation for a while, but it worked - forcing the Soviets to spend more on defence than they could afford and thus exacerbating the weaknesses in the system that eventually made it collapse. Another man would have settled halfway.

Not that the Uzbeks, Kazakhs or Belorussians - or even the Russians themselves - are any better off now than they would have been in a half-reformed, Gorbachevian Soviet Union.. <shrugs>. But the people in Central and Eastern Europe (the Balts especially) would have been, civic protest movements and reform communists or no, so kudos for Reagan's part in the course of events.

But otherwise I cant think of a single positive contribution Reagan made, either domestically or internationally.

Thats all off-topic though.

I think that's because you believe, listen to, and adhere to too much liberal hype and don't understand Reagan conservatism. Those of us who are Reagan Conservatives know why he is and deserves to be much loved and admired. He invariably shows up at or near the top or at least on every poll asking "who was the greatest American president?" (Admittedly Bill Clinton also appears on some of those but not all.)

But as you said, it is off topic EXCEPT for the qualities that we look for in a candidate to be President.

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I think the average American has a higher opinion of Reagan than that.

When he took over, unemployment, interest rates, and a whole bunch of everything else seemed to be in a tailspin.

When he got done, people were working and the economy was expanding. The deficit was skyrocketing, true, but lots of other things were headed in the right direction.

He's not quite the St. Ron his supporters build him up to be, but at the end of his eight years, our problems were a good deal more manageable than when he took over. And people were working-that counts for a lot.

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JPB wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
He of course was not perfect nor a saint and he was as hated by one sector of society as he was loved by another.

I don't know that it was necessarily one or the other. I was never a big Reagan fan, but I didn't hate him either. I don't recall exactly, but I probably voted Libertarian those years because I didn't feel compelled to vote against either candidate.

I agree with those who would answer Giuliani to the the question, "If election day was tomorrow..." but I no idea what my answer will be 18 months from now.

You are correct to include a middle ground or more neutral stance of course. My point was, however, that the Conservative base wants the kind of conservatism that Reagan emulated. We don't have a candidate that does that, but Guliani has more of those qualities than any of the others at this time.

I am concerned about the charisma factor though. Reagan was the master communicator and when he talked, those that actually listened were encouraged and motivated. If Guiliani can't do that, he will have a far more difficult time as chief executive.

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sozobe wrote:

Thomas wrote:
I'm almost getting a sense here that Sozobe is not a fan of Giuliani.

Getting a little repetitive there, wasn't I?

That's okay. You probably suffered more during my phase when I proclaimed, on a daily basis, how enthusiastically I support school vouchers.

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At least when Reagan spoke, most English-speaking peoples could understand what he said.

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Thomas wrote:

sozobe wrote:
Thomas wrote:
I'm almost getting a sense here that Sozobe is not a fan of Giuliani.

Getting a little repetitive there, wasn't I?

That's okay. You probably suffered more during my phase when I proclaimed, on a daily basis, how enthusiastically I support school vouchers.

I hope you still do.

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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

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