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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:27 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
sozobe wrote:
That's one of the main reasons I'm against Hillary as a candidate.

I think that if it's Hillary vs. a so-so Republican, the conservatives will come out in droves to keep her OUT of the White House.

I think that if it's Obama vs. a so-so Republican, the conservatives will be more likely to stay home.
Agreed, for sure... and I believe the polls are beginning to reflect as much. Other than against Giuliani; Hillary is faring worse than Obama or Edwards against the Republicans at this juncture. I expect this pattern to expand.


Name rec. Hillary's got incredible name rec. Obama will be fighting this whole year to change that.

Cycloptichorn
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:27 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Lash wrote:
So, who do you like, cyclo?


See above. I don't deify the man, but Obama has the skillz to get the job done.

Cycloptichorn

2nd and 3rd...
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:30 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Lash wrote:
So, who do you like, cyclo?


See above. I don't deify the man, but Obama has the skillz to get the job done.

Cycloptichorn


He is a great public speaker,and charm and charisma.
On that we agree.

BUT,what "skills" does he have to be President?
What has he accomplished on the world stage?

I am sorry,but it takes more then charisma to be president.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:32 pm
Lash wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Lash wrote:
So, who do you like, cyclo?


See above. I don't deify the man, but Obama has the skillz to get the job done.

Cycloptichorn

2nd and 3rd...


I'm not swayed by Edwards (says the same thing over and over) or any of the other Dems except for Bill Richardson. It's a damn shame that Richardson won't get elected, because he has tons of experience and people love him down in NM.

I'd say Gulliani is my 3rd after Richardson, but only b/c he seems the most sensible out of the Republican crowd. He has some odd ideas though about sucking up to the religious right; I doubt he would be able to get the nomination without a level of pandering which would disqualify him in my eye.

Your top 3?

Cycloptichorn
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:33 pm
Lash wrote:
Bringing some articles.

This is the final paragraph in the linked article:

If Giuliani winds up harnessing enough moderate Republican support to win the nomination, the GOP will have another problem on its hands: how to get evangelicals to the polls in the general election. "Evangelicals just won't vote" if Giuliani is the nominee, says the Southern Baptist Convention's Richard Land. "He'll lose Ohio, perhaps Tennessee-maybe even Texas." To Christian conservatives, it's a losing formula. But they still have to find a winning formula that includes them.

Evangelicals may stay home and wash their hair.

Let 'em.


I tend to agree with both you and Bill at least in principle on this. I think the really radical RR group is too small to make a significant difference except in a very close election where a few swing votes will tip the balance.

While most (not all) of the rest of the RR are going to be pro life, pro death penalty, pro immigration enforcement, pro defense, pro conservative economy, etc., no single one or two of these (or any other issue) is going to be a deal breaker if a candidate offers most of what they want.

So I think it comes down to which candidate offers the most that the RR and all other of the Conservative base want that will get the vote even if noses are held. I think many Conservatives would have preferred a candidate other than George Bush in the last election, but John Kerry was way too liberal and wishy washy to be an acceptable alternative.

Even if the GOP puts up an unpalatable candidate--they did with Bob Dole who would have made a terrific president but way too few were able to see that--it does open the door wider for a mainstream, attractive, charismatic Democrat. That Democrat will have to appear as close to the Center as Bill Clinton was though, or the RR and other Conservatives who vote will sigh and go into depression, but they'll vote Republican.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:35 pm
mysteryman wrote:
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Lash wrote:
So, who do you like, cyclo?


See above. I don't deify the man, but Obama has the skillz to get the job done.

Cycloptichorn


He is a great public speaker,and charm and charisma.
On that we agree.

BUT,what "skills" does he have to be President?
What has he accomplished on the world stage?

I am sorry,but it takes more then charisma to be president.


What skills? Diplomatic ability through speaking, intelligence, common sense. The three most important things that our current president is lacking. He also seems to be quite religious and talks about morality a lot, so maybe we'll see a return to classic religious morality in a president; not one that tells you who can or can't have sex with, but one in which we emulate the best qualities of those in our religious texts: compassion, understanding, hope.

He has accomplished as much on the 'world stage' as either of the Presidents elected before him, and in fact, he can find and pronounce the names of foreign capitals, which puts him slightly ahead of Bush - not trying to insult, frankly it's the truth.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:40 pm
Rudy
...
...
...
Damn.

42. Obama is a distant possibility if a constellation of freak accidents occur.

Everyone else turns my stomach. And, Obama would be a symbolic vote if there was no one running who I could happily support. ...if he closes the experience gap with some serious talk.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:41 pm
Rudy trumps the pre-defense candidates.

<IMO>
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:41 pm
mysteryman wrote:
I am sorry,but it takes more then charisma to be president.
Really?
http://www.piercecollege.edu/faculty/chartrfj/images/Bill%20Clinton.jpg

Giuliani first; with McCain and Obama battling for numbers 2 and 3... for now...
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:43 pm
Is it that you guys really like Guiliani, or is it sort of a best-solution thing?

Don't get me wrong - I like the guy, personally. He is my number three after all Smile But I'm wondering if his pro-Iraq war and anti-fundamentalist religious stances won't get him into more trouble....

Cycloptichorn
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:45 pm
I'm crazy about him.
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mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:46 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Is it that you guys really like Guiliani, or is it sort of a best-solution thing?

Don't get me wrong - I like the guy, personally. He is my number three after all Smile But I'm wondering if his pro-Iraq war and anti-fundamentalist religious stances won't get him into more trouble....

Cycloptichorn


I cant speak for anyone else,but for me there is nobody on the repub side that piques my interest right now.

On the dem side,the candidate I would have supported wholeheartedly decided not to run.
That was Evan Bayh (D-IN).

As of yet,I havent heard enough about what any candidate thinks to make a choice.

The only thing I know for sure is that I will vote for ANYBODY BUT HILLARY!!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 06:55 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Is it that you guys really like Guiliani, or is it sort of a best-solution thing?

Don't get me wrong - I like the guy, personally. He is my number three after all Smile But I'm wondering if his pro-Iraq war and anti-fundamentalist religious stances won't get him into more trouble....
Those are precisely the qualities I like about him. His politics tend to cross the aisle in unison with my own. McCain too for the same reasons, to a lesser degree now that he's becoming a full time panderer. Obama, because I see honesty, intelligence, and a man who respects his own ability to reason. Also because I think he shows a distinct ability to reach across the aisle. Romney's trying to be too Bush-like... Edwards is a scumbag for pretending to channel a dead baby for money... and Hillary is an opportunist-weathervane like Kerry. Just my opinions.

Giuliani embodies my own politics as nearly as anyone since Ross Perot.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 07:44 pm
OBill, Just your opinions, but they mirror pretty much how I see them-thar candidates too!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 07:53 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
OBill, Just your opinions, but they mirror pretty much how I see them-thar candidates too!
Shocked You are for Giuliani? Or are you just commenting on the rationale for McCain and the 3 I don't like.
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kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 08:24 pm
The pro-Giuliani crowd: have any of you actually listened to the man speak for more than a few seconds?

Giuliani was a great mayor of New York, a man who will be admired there for many a year-heck, many a decade. Giuliani got elected because crime had reached incredible levels in New York City, culminating in a Crown Heights, Brooklyn situation where police apparently were told not to intervene too strongly against gangs roaming the streets lest a worse situation develop.

New Yorkers were looking for just about anyone who at least took office intending to do something real, and who better than the prosecutor who put half the Mafia behind bars? If you look at the statistics, the crime rate had indeed begun to inch down under Giuliani's predecessor, but the Crown Heights situation made people realize that statistics or no, nobody in city government was interested in actually doing something about crime on the streets. So Giuliani won the second time he ran.

He got elected because of crime-he could never have gotten elected because of his personality. Stiff and hunched in posture, he simply has no charisma at all. Which doesn't bother New Yorkers, for the simple fact that New Yorkers relate to people, including their public officials, on the basis of "Can you get the job done?", NOT "Are you a nice guy". Remember Kojak on TV, the New York detective? Remember his favorite line-a sneering "Who loves ya, baby" - with the obviously implied answer, "Nobody"?. Well, that's the New York attitude in a nutshell.

The rest of the country, for some reason, is different. They have to actually like the guy before they vote for him. Which means that Giuliani is in trouble. He has no likability factor at all.

If you vote for Giuliani, you vote for him solely because his past accomplishments make you think he will be effective. You never vote for him because you like the guy.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 08:28 pm
I like him BECAUSE of his past achievements--and because he is the cheese.

The cheese.

The cheese stands alone...

Lovin the cheese.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 08:30 pm
I need a cheese hat.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 08:32 pm
You called?

Kelticwizard, I know what you're saying, but I'm no fan of Giuliani and can see his appeal. It's that outsider/ own man thing Lash refers to. I mean, the drag! The attitude! People like the idea that he won't bow to any master.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 08:33 pm
<nods emphatically>
0 Replies
 
 

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