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A first(?) thread on 2008: McCain,Giuliani & the Republicans

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 04:11 pm
I'm sure you do....and I understand why you'd want to.

But, his stances are close, soz.

I won't push it--I'm not trying to make a negative comment. But, brace yourself. They may back him.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 04:13 pm
Laughing

I'd be willing to bet on that one.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 04:15 pm
Did you know McCain had been courting them?
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 04:19 pm
Of course!

After much hemming and hawing on Roe vs. Wade, he recently came out saying that he's against it and wants it overturned. He's trying to stake his territory, but the RR is still suspicious of him.

Regardless, he has a WAY better chance of getting their support than Obama does.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 04:23 pm
A bit more detail on McCain:

Hemming and hawing in 1999:

Quote:
"I'd love to see a point where it is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary," McCain told the Chronicle in an article published Friday. "But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/mccain082499.htm

Er I mean I'm like SO against Roe vs. Wade, duh! on February 18th:

Quote:
SPARTANBURG, S.C. - Republican presidential candidate John McCain, looking to improve his standing with the party's conservative voters, said Sunday the court decision that legalized abortion should be overturned.

"I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned," the Arizona senator told about 800 people in South Carolina, one of the early voting states.


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17222147/
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 04:30 pm
All McCain-pain in the butt, is interested in is to get the religious rights' votes. He's thrown away his ethics (if he ever had it) to win the big pie.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 04:30 pm
<shakes head>

My son is for McCain. His reason: McCain's pancake make-up isn't as embarrassingly orange as Giuliani's.

<demoralized>
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 04:39 pm
Well, orange pancake makeup is an outrage, it's true.

I'm still expecting some dark horse to bust out and take the lead for the Republicans, can't imagine right now who it would be though. (Brownback = nut. Tancredo = nut. Ahnold = foreign. McCain = straight talk my Aunt Fanny. Guiliani = multiply divorced adulterer with suspiciously liberal views. Gingrich = weird, out of public eye too long. Ron Paul = Libertarian nut [I knind of like how consistent he is though]. Mitt Romney = Mormon, suspiciously liberal background. Mick Huckabee = maybe. Duncan Hunter = nut. I can't think of anyone else right now.)
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 04:50 pm
I don't see divorce as an issue.

(See Reagan)

Plus, blow jobs in the oval office sort of kyboshes the morality plank.

But, I love your McCain blurb... Laughing ...and you're right about the nuts. Didn't Newt leave his wife (dying of cancer--in the hospital)? Aggravated divorce...
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 04:55 pm
I don't see divorce as an issue at all, but in terms of RR support and getting support from the Republican electorate as a whole. I think Republican candidates want to be far, far away from blow jobs in the oval office, and not sure if Giuliani is far enough.

This race seems wide-open. If one of the little-known nuts gets things together, could mount a real challenge to McCain/ Giuliani I think. If they're not just TOO nutty. Which they might be.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 05:00 pm
Tidbit of clarification: Reagan was the RR's darling, and divorced.

I knew you weren't that type. Very Happy

I do wonder if someone else will come in late. <scanning possibilities>
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 05:03 pm
Oh, I see.

Did he cheat on his first wife with Nancy, too? (Don't remember.)

I think the cheating is worse than the divorcing/ remarrying per se.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 05:15 pm
Well. Giuliani's not preening for the RR crowd. This is the general electorate we're talking about. After Clinton, normal bedroom stuff just doesn't apply.

His wife, Hanover, had a shrewish reputation. I don't know that he comes off worse than she did. She wasn't a Republican in politics in NY, though. I think it shakes out much more sympathetic for him in retrospect.

But, we'll see how the polling stacks up.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 06:40 pm
sozobe wrote:
Obama's Christian but his church is really liberal. One of the first to allow gay clergy, one of the first to have women... pastors? (not sure about terminology), very diverse congregation, etc., etc.

McCain badmouthed them (Christian conservatives) and they're mad at him.

Brownback isn't viable (I'd hope anyway, he's a nutcase).

They're in trouble.
The problem with the RR voting block is precisely that their views don't blend well with most Americans. They don't deserve the power they have. Where the Left shoots itself in the foot; isn't by not catering to them so much, but rather it is in antagonizing them.


Pro CP= Barbarism.
Pro Life= Idiocy
Pro Marriage Protection= Bigotry
Pro Christmas= Discrimination
To the thinking majority of citizens; these aren't necessarily make or break issues… until they are too ardently attacked.

Conversely, both Obama and Giuliani support their own ideals, and when questioned articulate their reasons for same, rather than Lashing out at the religious or Liberals in general. In a country where 80% of the citizens believe in some form of God; this is a recipe for disaster. The Right will always have the upper hand in these squabbles, because the Left lacks the identity of the Right. It's comical to watch members of the Right deny being members of the Right with the same fervency as the Left denies being members of the Left. The Left, almost by definition is made up of people with more independent sets of values in that they lack the organization of the Religious Right. Hence; even though the Right hits every bit as hard; less people are alienated as a result of the blow.

Strategically, the Right need only forward an awareness campaign to their base involving one of the Left's pet issues, and then sit back an watch the Left bury themselves in overreaction. Obama seems almost unique in his ability to push a clearly Left-wing agenda without going overboard and that is demonstrative of some serious political savvy. Hyper-polarization over relatively minor issues, to the point of demonizing the opposition and alienating even greater numbers with overreaction is where Liberal minded folks tend to get in trouble, and thus far Obama is navigating around the minefields brilliantly.

Having been elected Mayor of NY of all places, Giuliani has proven that contrary views can be acceptable if they are reasonable and the preponderance of your politics are acceptable. Once you factor out the hyper-partisan on both sides; you are addressing the Moderates of both parties as well as the Independent's. These are the people who decide who wins, and over-pandering to either side will alienate a sufficient majority of the middle to insure defeat. IMO, the Right has outmaneuvered the left in recent decades, simply by keeping the polarization levels high. It takes two to Tango, and the Left generally doesn't just react, but overreacts… ultimately to their own detriment. Put simply; in a country where 80% of the citizens believe in some form of God; you'll not do yourself any favors by accusing them of idiocy, bigotry or barbarism.

Next up, and most importantly, you have the "War on Terrorism". While not a religious issue itself, it serves the purpose of polarization and polarization ultimately favors the Right. One would think that with the Iraq War's immense unpopularity, it would be simple to ride that to the oval office… and it could well be if the Democrats could collectively keep their mouths shut about relatively less important subjects. But they won't. The Right will forward a few key attacks on unpopular positions held by the Left, and the Left will overreact quick enough to make Pavlov proud.

Obama, in my opinion, may have the charisma to simultaneously duck the Right's polarization strategy, while maintaining his good standing with the middle and the Left. Hillary would not. She'd mix it up, believing she's winning the good fight, all the while playing right into the Right's hands.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Feb, 2007 07:02 pm
OBill, Good analysis from my standpoint - which isn't saying much. Wink
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 01:31 am
Oliver North for President.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 03:40 am
Lash wrote:
Well. Giuliani's not preening for the RR crowd. This is the general electorate we're talking about.

Are you sure? I would be surprised if Giuliani wasn't preening, for two reasons.

1) If Giuliani doesn't win the Republican nomination in the first place, the general electorate will never get to vote on him. I would be surprised if any candidate could win the Republican nomination without preening for the Religious Right. Why wouldn't you be?

2) If turnout was high in America's presidential elections, every additional vote for the Republicans would tend to come from a Democratic voter who swung. This favors moderates like Giuliani. But turnout is usually low in America's presidential elections (about 55%). This means a Republican candidate can't win just by motivating Democrats to swing. He also has to motivate Republicans to show up at voting booths at all. This harms moderate candidates, because moderate positions will frustrate a party's fringe more likely than its centrists. I don't see how Giuliani can overcome that without a good deal of preening. Do you?
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 11:58 am
General preening v preening for the RR... Well, we'll see. I'd rather him drop out than ass-kiss the Religious Right--and he's practically said that's what he'd do.

You are correct that his vault happens in the primaries. Right now, I'm buying his talk about presenting himself to be who he is--and let the chips fall where they may....see my quote.

I hope he doesn't disappoint me--but this is politics.

I don't think he's going to retreat from his current liberal stands on social issues to cozy up to the RR.

If Giuliani doesn't have the RR, I still think he can win. I think he'll get a swarm of cross-overs. There aren't laws preventing excited Rudy-ites from voting in primaries. You may underestimate Rudy's following.

We'll see. Very Happy
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 01:09 pm
RR aside, since they represent a small minority of the Conservative base, there is a limit to how much liberalism a Conservative can tolerate, however. And any Republican who fails to at least give lip service to enough Conservative values will not make it in the primaries and/or will have no chance in 2008. The candidate doesn't have to be a rightwing fanatic, but he has to understand what Conservative values are and know how to communicate that he understands and will defend them even if he personally holds some libertarian or liberal views. He can't come across as a RINO and hold the allegiance of the Conservative base.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 26 Feb, 2007 01:11 pm
Republican In Name Only?
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